bad experience at coin shop

[James_OldeTowne]

Sorry, but I disagree with you. "Trusting someone with more knowledge than yourself to behave in a fair and ethical manner" seems to me to be a large part of what this thread IS about. And you and a couple of other posters have apparently taken issue with those who do the trusting

Actually, we agree that trust is a large part of the issue - just shouldn't be represented as the only part! Personal responsibility also looms large, and should not be ignored.

 

I've said my piece, and look forward to other opinions!

[nwcs]

It's hard to separate what I would do in that situation from the minimum acceptable standards (which tend to be vague and shifting). I think it's like a car accident situation. Some states allow for contributory negligence and others don't. I think the sellers were contributory to the situation but I'd probably throw that out.

 

In the end, I probably would not interfere while on private property but I would say something to the people outside the store. As for the seller, negative publicity is the proper reward. In my opinion, the seller knowingly took advantage of the situation. It isn't illegal, likely, but certainly shameful. So I would give them the shameful reward and make it known what they did.

 

The reverse of this situation is a clear typo on inventory. A buyer can complete the deal and it isn't illegal. But I think it's shameful if it is a clear typo. And that isn't the same as someone spotting a key variety that went unnoticed. The one is an error and the second is about knowledge where the seller is assumed to be an expert. Different than the original one where the seller cannot be assumed to be expert.

 

For me, it's about doing what the right thing to do is and not just meeting the minimum legal standard. The people contributed to their own misfortune but the dealer was shameful for taking advantage of it.

[cpm9ball]

James, if you work with a realtor, who has advised you what price to list your house at and the first offer is at your full asking price, will you turn it down?

I would take it. But, rest assured that the "list price" of my house is going to have some serious input on my part! I've actually already been down this road before. As a seller, you get to set the final "list price" for your house, not the realtor. And again, that takes a little research on your part, but it isn't hard to find "comps" and trends in your local real estate market. It's widely available material.

 

I realize that this has strayed from the original topic, but James, you might be quite surprised to learn that your input concerning the sale price of your home doesn't mean squat under the current market conditions. The mortgage lenders are controlling the appraisal market. They made so many bad loans during the peak years of this decade, but they are not willing to accept reasponsibility for it. Instead, they are intimidating the appraisers to force them to make lowball appraisals. Now, many appraisers don't even inspect the homes. They've taken a page from the gangs of L.A. who routinely commit drive-by shootings.

 

Chris

[WoodenJefferson]

Perhaps the couple DID do their homework and the dealer was listed in the Yellow Pages (book/internet) as a advertised member of the ANA. (or even has a decal on the store front) The very first words spoken in the ANA “Dealer Code of Ethics” is the following statement:

 

To purchase and sell numismatic items at prices commensurate with a reasonable return to the seller and for a reasonable return on my investment with regards to the then prevailing rate.

 

I feel that if this dealer is indeed a member of the ANA they are not following the guidelines as set forth by this organization.

 

 

[Oldtrader3]

I agree, Woody, the dealer is responsible for making a reasonable offer particularly if he is a member of the ANA and/or PNG.

 

Many mentally less than competent seniors still drive and are out selling things. My wife and I are personally involved with a 98 Y.O. man who was still driving a car last year, way past the time when he could hear well enough, see well enough, had any near-normal reactions, or could walk straight enough to be considered normal. Luckily he did not kill anyone or himself and his wife while driving down both sides of the road, weaving from curb to curb, at 15 MPH. He also would weave down the 70MPH freeway at 35MPH in the left, passing lane. The State of Washington even gave him a new driver's license (to kill). Plus, he was still out conducting business as though he still had a working brain, which he did not, because of very advanced dementia.

 

It took a fall off the toilet, hitting his head on the sink and needing 40 stitches to finally get him committed by an ER Doc into a supervised care facility. His 95 Y.O. wife, who is also loony, would not commit him and covered up for his totally irrational, aggressive behavior and dangerous driving. The local Health and Human Services Department and the Police, having been called to rescue his wife, refused to get involved and certify him as incompetent, even after he turned on her.

 

In closing, It is not many senior's fault that they get taken. They are easy targets for fraud and several seniors, whom I know, have been taken by fraudulent means. It is a national disgrace actually, the way senior's get taken by insurance salesmen, political action groups, charities, con men and many coin dealers (cheating elderly widows).

[rons]

Regardless of all of the side discussions I am pleased that Jim named the shop so I can place it on my list of coin shops to avoid. What goes around comes around and hopefully that guy will have his chance soon.

[just-john]

While i feel the dealer was low balling them on the price of their coins. Who's to say

first 3 week of August were a bad time to be selling silver silver dropped almost 40% from something like $18.00 per OZ to $12.70 per OZ during that time period could have gone to $7.00 oz then what ? not knowing the dates and conditions of the coins ?? Plus sometimes

many small dealer just are very underfunded and can only pay what they happen to have liquid at the time somebody walks in.Those could have been the 5th old couple coming in that day selling their treasure.

[MarkFeld]

While i feel the dealer was low balling them on the price of their coins. Who's to say

first 3 week of August were a bad time to be selling silver silver dropped almost 40% from something like $18.00 per OZ to $12.70 per OZ during that time period could have gone to $7.00 oz then what ? not knowing the dates and conditions of the coins ?? Plus sometimes

many small dealer just are very underfunded and can only pay what they happen to have liquid at the time somebody walks in.Those could have been the 5th old couple coming in that day selling their treasure.

The fact that silver COULD have dropped sharply is really irrelevant - it could have moved up sharply, too. And if, for some reason, a dealer is unable to pay anywhere near a fair price for items like that, they should refer the sellers to someone else who can.

[ant]

(thumbs u

[CHABSENTIA]

This will sound very harsh, but I put the full blame on the elderly couple if they were in good mental health.

 

First, being old is no excuse for not knowing the value of your property. If anything, their should have used their years on earth to learn how to get something properly appraised, get second opinions, and so forth. Here they acted like a 5 year old spending his parent's coin collection on candy.

 

There are many things I am not an expert at valuing. If my grandparents left me an old dining room set, I would make sure I fully understand it's market value, it's condition, everything about it. I wouldn't necessarily need a computer to do this.

 

If I'm selling my car in the classifieds, I don't just make up a price. Same thing if I'm buying a car in the classifieds, I fully research everything.

 

If I'm 80 years old and still in good mental health, then I should have learned over the years to give a damn about what I'm doing before I do it.

 

Now these elderly people may have been living comfortably, and not even care if they were ripped of by hundreds of dollars. Old people have a shift in their values, and maybe they didn't care how much they got for the coins.

 

If these elderly people were not in good mental health, and seemed confused at the entire process, then that is a different story.

 

This is how the world works. If I purchase stock in GM, and I don't read all of their financial statements and be well informed of their current business environment, then I'm at fault, not GM or my broker.

 

How about the elderly folks take full responsibility for their carelessness.

 

Actually it is not how the World works.They have actually had may surveys and there are only a small minorty of people who read Financial statements and a smaller group that can undertstand them. Just look at hsi situation with the Oil companies and how many people say they are making too much money. People do not understand the difference between Gross Profits and Net Profits. Looking at a Household where you have a Mortgage payment and a car Payment and have to buy Food etc then you don't have your whole paycheck to spend , What is left over after paying for essentials is your "net income".The Oil Companies have a typical "Net Profit" Margin of 8% while Drug Companies and the Media to name a few have net profits of at least 19 % yet you have many people "whining" over the Greedy Oil companies but not the Drug Companies etd that have a Net Profit margin of over twice that so your example of readinf Financial statements is not a good one.

 

I have been to the Bank and have seen a representative from the Bank having to explain over and over again who Interest on a CD is calculated many times I have had people spending hundreds of thousands of dollars to buy a House that " they didn't read all of the paperwork because "nobody reads all that stuff".

 

I used to be a Manager in Retail and I have seen people who worked in the Store that can't figure out the amount of change unless the Cash Register is functional and tells them how much to return in change and I have been to Restaurants and seen the same thing,

 

You have people on these Forums who probably have more experience than the elderly couple but not as much as others who still need help. I know of Wealthy people that are not Computer literate enough to do a search. In cases where they are wealthy then they have somebody do it for them and most likely you are talking about people who have many thousands of dollars in coins and not just a few Morgans and a few Mercury dimes,Many people feel that if it is a one time deal that all the research is not necessary especailly if the deal is a small one.

 

Unforturnatley and what seems to be the case here is that people in this age bracket remember when people were Honest for the most part and deals could be made on just a "handshake"..They are aware of all the possible crooks out there and how the world has changed,

[CHABSENTIA]

This will sound very harsh, but I put the full blame on the elderly couple if they were in good mental health.

 

I've seen a lot of really stupid posts but this one takes the cake. How dare they assume the dealer is an honest professional rather than a slimey thief. Give me a freaking break.

 

Exactly. Imagine thinking that a Professional would act like a Professional.

[CHABSENTIA]

In my previous posts I was assuming these elderly people had close to their full mental capacity.

 

Of course if they appeared in very poor health, you have an obligation to treat them differently.

 

But I am speaking about making transactions with mentally competent people. And at least one of these people in the example were well enough to get in a car and drive.

 

When mentally competent people accept your lowball offer, a deal is a deal.

 

I never considered Mental Health at all and I listed my reasons. THe problem is that many were looking at the situation in that the elderly couple should have known better,I have made a lot of Money in the Stock Market and also in Real Estate. I sold some Property in Fort Meyers Florida for $90,000.00 and it was just two small lots because I thought Real Estate Values were peaking before the recent mess. Does that make the person who bought the lots Stupid?Does that mean they were in poor Mental Health?I have already given the reasons why there is a large number of people out there who can find their a--es with both hands and a roadmap as well as people who lived in a time when people were Honest for the most part and just a "handshake" meant something,

[CHABSENTIA]

That aside, we continue to disagree on this type of topic and probably always will. Yes, I wish more people would take personal responsibility for their own actions, but no, that doesn't excuse unethical behavior on the part of others who seek to take advantage. And yes, I realize that this is just my opinion and I don't get final say on what is "right" or "wrong".

But Mark, the problem is that seldom do threads discuss the issue of personal responsibility. It always seems to be about the despicable coin dealer, ripping off the public left and right.

 

This dealer was a worm. But the sellers were fools (and their age is not a factor in the discussion, either). This is not a well balanced discussion unless the mistakes made by both parties are brought to light.

 

There were two parties who made poor decisions here. But the OP unfairly focuses only on one. When was the last time we saw a similar incident posted from the point of view of the very poorly though out decisions by the seller?

 

Should we look at the word as "Fools" or "Naviete"? I have something small that burns me up. How many times have people been out driving and they are stopped behind somebody who when the traffic starts to move has to take time to take their Automatic Transmission out of "Park" because they think they are saving Gas? This is a Myth that has survived because before Automatic Transmissions there were Manual Transmissions and this was indeed a gas saver as well as a Maintenance saver as the Clutch was not depressed all the time at stops,..

 

THis is not the Case and Cars are engineered to idle less in Drive while stopped and your Owners Manual will even tell you that you can do damage to the Engine by having your car idle in " Park" for long periods of time. This is most likely to be a fact known by Elderly people then younger people today because the Myth has been passed on to people now onlt acquainted with the Automatic Transmission but have heard the Myth, Does that make the younger Generation fools or just Naive.

 

Imagine the Stupidity of those Engineers that were so bold as to think that the Majority of people would read the Cars Manual and would also know that the Car was idling less in Drive than in Park.

 

Think about it and notice how many people do it when you are out on the Road.

[CHABSENTIA]

That aside, we continue to disagree on this type of topic and probably always will. Yes, I wish more people would take personal responsibility for their own actions, but no, that doesn't excuse unethical behavior on the part of others who seek to take advantage. And yes, I realize that this is just my opinion and I don't get final say on what is "right" or "wrong".

But Mark, the problem is that seldom do threads discuss the issue of personal responsibility. It always seems to be about the despicable coin dealer, ripping off the public left and right.

 

This dealer was a worm. But the sellers were fools (and their age is not a factor in the discussion, either). This is not a well balanced discussion unless the mistakes made by both parties are brought to light.

 

There were two parties who made poor decisions here. But the OP unfairly focuses only on one. When was the last time we saw a similar incident posted from the point of view of the very poorly though out decisions by the seller?

 

The problem with your argument is that the coin dealer is increasingly angling to be considered a "professional", and taking advantage of someone less knowledgeable is decidedly unprofessional.

 

A medical parallel would be me convincing a patient to undergo a procedure that he/she did not need for my own financial benefit is similarly unprofessional. We would not blame the poor soul for taking the advice of the medical professional, the one with superior knowledge, would we?

 

Which was my point earlier. Imagine people thinking that the defintion of a Professonal would mean that a person was acting Professional.

[just-john]

The TROUBLING part of the story is that the wife seemed upset .Was that because they had already been too 4 other coin dealers in the area and that Dealer gave them the HIGHEST price of the 4 .When you have to sell something really have too sell something it's to late always have a buffer if you don't you need to sell something and get one.

[SeatedCoinage-migration]

Don't get me started on oil companies.

 

I don't have much money to invest, but what money I do invest is largely in oil companies. Not just integrated oil companies, but drillers, service, and tankers.

 

I watch people complain about the refiners, when they are the ones hurt most by rising oil prices.

 

I will admit I don't read every page of the annual report, there is so much information, it's hard to come to a conclusion over it all.

 

But I do take specific info. Drilling rates, number of new builds etc... The integrated oil companies are difficult to put a price on, since they are doing so many things at once. And they are putting so much into exploration, it's hit and miss.

 

But with tanker companies and drilling companies, their business is simplified. It is easy to track the number of rigs or tankers, their breakeven day rate etc..

 

Sorry this is so off topic.

[SeatedCoinage-migration]

Mark,

 

You said that the dealer should have sent the customers to another dealer if he could not offer a reasonable price.

 

I think you are completely out of touch with reality. It is a nice though it theory. But the dealer is not there to be nice, or to counsel the customer. He is there to make a living, and his income is not guaranteed by a salary or a wage.

 

Imagine a car salesmen who has a customer come in looking to sell his car. The car has a book value of $2,000, but the salesmen can only offer $1,000 for whatever reason. And the salesmen then tells the customer, "sorry, take it to the dealer next door, we can't pay you a fair price." Then watch the salesmen be immediately fired, and escorted off the lot.

 

You are recommending the dealer turn away business. That is not the reality of the world we are in.

 

Does Best Buy tell it's customers to go buy their computers at Walmart because it's a better deal for the customer?

 

I really don't know what else to say.

[MarkFeld]

Mark,

 

You said that the dealer should have sent the customers to another dealer if he could not offer a reasonable price.

 

I think you are completely out of touch with reality. It is a nice though it theory. But the dealer is not there to be nice, or to counsel the customer. He is there to make a living, and his income is not guaranteed by a salary or a wage.

 

Imagine a car salesmen who has a customer come in looking to sell his car. The car has a book value of $2,000, but the salesmen can only offer $1,000 for whatever reason. And the salesmen then tells the customer, "sorry, take it to the dealer next door, we can't pay you a fair price." Then watch the salesmen be immediately fired, and escorted off the lot.

 

You are recommending the dealer turn away business. That is not the reality of the world we are in.

 

Does Best Buy tell it's customers to go buy their computers at Walmart because it's a better deal for the customer?

 

I really don't know what else to say.

It (referring people to other dealers if I don't feel I can pay a fair price) IS a reality sometimes. I have, on more than one occasion, done the very thing I suggested, and I know other dealers who have, as well.

 

Edited to add: I really don't know what else to say

[ant]

just because we need to make a living doesnt mean to take advantage of others. the people that steal cars and rob banks also say they do it to make a living. i can make a living without sticking it to the next guy. and i know mark is a very honest person and he makes a living. i have actualy got the local stores working together more in the same manner that mark was speaking of. if one cant or wont they send to the next person who will or could.

[bochiman]

Interesting thread.

I can see some folks I would be very cautious potentially dealing with ....

 

 

To the question about why the wife was angry...maybe because she realized, or just realized, they had been swindled!

 

Some people react in different ways to news like that.....also remember it is someone from a different generation....likely not online, remembers the depression, remembers when folks tried to be more fair and honest with each other, etc etc etc

 

Sad that way some folks want to put dishonesty of a dealer onto an older generation (or anyone for that matter).

 

if the only way that the dealer can stay in business is by swindling others like that, then I say "let them go out of business!"

[Oldtrader3]

Good grief, I am tired of this conversation. I have dealt with good coin dealers like Mark, and with scum bags that I would wish would get what is coming to them. So have all of you. I can not believe that this conversation is happening. Some of you have lost sight of the fact that it is not "Professional" (with a capital "P") to be a crook, unless you are a professional crook! Then I guess it is fine with some of you.

 

All of you complain about scum bag dealers who try to take advantage of you but then you de facto say it is allowed for people to behave this way, because you have to know how to protect yourselves. Get real, do you really enjoy dealing with scumbags who try to cheat you every time. Do you really want to live in a world run by crooked used car dealers?

 

Actually, the reality is that none of us should have to put up with this cheating nonsense. I happen to remember the time when you could do a deal on a handshake and actually some businesses (i.e. stock trading, commodities trading) are still run this way, as is much of the high end coin business. Do you think that Jack Lee always had a contract for every coin that he bought? Also, in those not-to-distant times, most people operated by the Golden Rule. Do some of you, who are justifying this nonsense, remember the Golden Rule?

 

I tried a couple of posts to get you people to think about the position that many seniors are in and was totally ignored. Just wait! Most of you are going to be in that position someday because most people live long enough now become elderly and senile. If you think cheating people just because they are old and/or not able to protect themselves in this crappy modern world that we live in, should be allowed, just wait, you will have wonderful Golden Years in a world of no ethics!

 

I would have jumped that scum-bag dealer, in a minute, in public. He had it coming, period, no brainer! I do not care what modern "Political Correctness" is or what that scum bag dealer thinks of me as long as it contains a good measure of fear and respect! I would consider it an honor to be kicked out of this scum's store and I would tell him on the way out what a weasel he was.

 

Well I guess that is my sermon for the month!

[thehumantorch]

Good grief, I am tired of this conversation. I have dealt with good coin dealers like Mark, and with scum bags that I would wish would get what is coming to them. So have all of you. I can not believe that this conversation is happening. Some of you have lost sight of the fact that it is not "Professional" (with a capital "P") to be a crook, unless you are a professional crook! Then I guess it is fine with some of you.

 

All of you complain about scum bag dealers who try to take advantage of you but then you de facto say it is allowed for people to behave this way, because you have to know how to protect yourselves. Get real, do you really enjoy dealing with scumbags who try to cheat you every time. Do you really want to live in a world run by crooked used car dealers?

 

Actually, the reality is that none of us should have to put up with this cheating nonsense. I happen to remember the time when you could do a deal on a handshake and actually some businesses (i.e. stock trading, commodities trading) are still run this way, as is much of the high end coin business. Also, in those not-to-distant times, most people operated by the Golden Rule. Do some of you, who are justifying this nonsense, remember the Golden Rule?

 

I tried a couple of posts to get you people to think about the position that many seniors are in and was totally ignored. Just wait! Most of you are going to be in that position someday because most people live long enough now become elderly and senile. If you think cheating people just because they are old and/or not able to protect themselves in this crappy modern world that we live in, should be allowed, just wait!

 

I would have jumped that scum-bag dealer, in a minute, in public. He had it coming, period, no brainer! I do not care what that scum bag dealer thinks of me as long as it contains a good measure of fear and respect! I would consider it an honor to be kicked out of this scum's store and I would tell him on the way out what a weasel he was.

 

Well I guess that is my sermon for the month!

 

Well put oldtrader3. We are all gonna get old someday. Some people will treat us like gold and some will treat us as too old.

[WoodenJefferson]

One of the most amazing displays of an elderly person’s courage was displayed to me while serving our country in the Pacific Island of Okinawa. The base gym hosted a martial arts fair and had various demonstrations by talented servicemen and from individuals of the local populace.

 

During the course of the demonstration an elderly, frail, short Okinawain dressed in a simple robe was accompanied by 4 of his students to the center of the gym. He looked like he was 100 years old but he was only 80...only 80! The announcer told us this elderly man’s name along with the students names and during the introduction, 4 stalks of bundled bamboo were quickly erected on the four corners of a small square. A short wooden bench was brought out along with a single watermelon. As the students worked silently and with purpose, the bench was carefully placed between two of the stalks of bamboo. The stage was set.

 

The announcer asked the interpreter what degree belt the teacher was and you could see the interpreter asking the old gentlemen about a belt. The old man just looked perplexed and smiled. He thought about if for a second, said something and the interpreter replied, “No belt, all in the mind and body.”

 

While one student was putting a blindfold onto the old man, another of the students picked up the melon, laid down on the bench and put the melon on his bared abdomen. The blindfolded old man was centered into the imaginary square, handed a samurai sword and then lead through the paces. With one student behind the elderly man, they went from one bamboo stalk to the next stalk, touching each one with the tip of the sword. After touching all 4 bundled stalks, the student led the blindfolded old man to the watermelon on the young students chest. He then took him to the very first stalk and quickly departed the ring of death.

 

The old man nodded.

 

Everyone stepped back and in a flurry of speed and flashing steel, the old man spun in a circle. He wielded the sword with both hands as he turned and slashed at the stalks of green bamboo. Instantly, the sword came down along with a guttural yell and the melon hit the floor in two pieces before the 4 severed stalks of bamboo eventually tumbled over.

 

There was an audible gasp and the audience roared to a standing ovation! I was impressed beyond belief that this 105 lb 80 year old man was capable of such a feat, but I did see it with my own eyes. Needless to say it opened them from then on about age and competency via a demonstration of skill and devotion.

 

We all posses these skills whether it be with brains or brawn, so don’t ever sell one short because of looks alone, you just may be surprised.

 

[jackson64]

I think it may have been touched on slightly but to say that the elderly couple acted naive or incompetent is foolish.

 

First: you are assuming that they did not think about their options for liquidating their small coin holdings--maybe they did and going to a PROFESSIONAL coin specialist who would know the value and possibly buy them was their best thought out action---how else would this elderly couple sell them? An advertisement in the paper?..open an ebay account, take pictures on their digital camera and write a lenghty auction listing?..call CoinWorld advertisers?--the coin dealer seems quite logical..

 

The sad thing is that they trusted a scumbag to act professionally, there may not have been other options--even if they had found a REDBOOK and knew the approximate value, who else could they sell them to ( plus older redbooks list lower grade Morgans and Peace $'s at less than $10 each anyhow)

 

 

PS: I live in the sticks here on the Southern Md shore of the Chesapeake--the nearest and ONLY coin shop within an hour drive is in Annapolis--again e1 assumed that they had other options than to trust a "professional" to treat them as he would like to be treated

[CHABSENTIA]

Don't get me started on oil companies.

 

I don't have much money to invest, but what money I do invest is largely in oil companies. Not just integrated oil companies, but drillers, service, and tankers.

 

I watch people complain about the refiners, when they are the ones hurt most by rising oil prices.

 

I will admit I don't read every page of the annual report, there is so much information, it's hard to come to a conclusion over it all.

 

But I do take specific info. Drilling rates, number of new builds etc... The integrated oil companies are difficult to put a price on, since they are doing so many things at once. And they are putting so much into exploration, it's hit and miss.

 

But with tanker companies and drilling companies, their business is simplified. It is easy to track the number of rigs or tankers, their breakeven day rate etc..

 

Sorry this is so off topic.

 

Not really. It is "perception" that I was referring. The perception that the Oil Companies are 100% at fault for $4.00 a gallon gas and that their Profitsa are absurd is Misconception.

 

I was merely answering another post. Another post referred to reading the Financials of General Motors. I did not start the subject. If you felt it was off topic then why didn't you address that individual? Could it be because that individual supported your theory even though it was bogus?

[MarkFeld]

If you felt it was off topic then why didn't you address that individual? Could it be because that individual supported your theory even though it was bogus?

I am under the impression that he was commenting about HIS (own) post being off topic.

[CHABSENTIA]

My health and life are a far cry from the risk of selling coins. When was the last time you heard of a coin dealer take out an insurance policy to guard against "ripping off the public"?

 

The difference is that anyone with just mediocre mental competence can go to a bookstore or library and look up the value of a silver dollar. The same most certainly cannot be said of looking up a cure for cancer (or whatever).

 

I see no parallel whatsoever between Robert's example and the opening post.

 

Of course, coins and health are not on the same level of importance (coins are far more important! ).

 

However, professionalism is professionalism. The behavior of the dealer in the OP is very unprofessional and reduces the dealer community at large to appearing more like con artists than professionals. You cannot have it both ways.

 

Not only this but not everybody is a Coin Dealer. The word "Professional" is a relative term. The professional is expected to be more knowledgeable than the layman. We would not need a "medium of exchange" if everybody could produce their own food. produce their own clothes, produce their own cars etc.

 

This was one of the reasons for a medium of exchange. Also people couldn't carry around bars of gold and silver to exchange etc. So various Services came into being for all this needs. People statrted out as not only being Professionals but acting liek Professionals and the word took on that meaning. Also one did not need a Contract for everything because a "handshake" and our word was actually better then a contract. The problem is that the latter situation used to be in the Majority and and is now a good deal less and one has to have a Contract.

 

I saw an article on the News today. It was talking about people who throw away their "used " Electronic equipment.This presents all sorts of problems especially with such things as "Mercury". The article stated that there has long been a Salvage company specifically for Businesses.

 

How many people here knew that regular consumers can and should dispose of them at Consumer Centers and "Best Buy" is the largest for it? How many people just put their old unrepairable VCR etc out for the trashman?

 

The fact of the matter is that if everbody "researched" each and every application that happened to them just once or twice then they would have time for little else and maybe not time for the research in order to do the right or logical thing.

 

And not everbody has the knowledge and /or the resources of where to start. There might also be people that don't want to ask friends because they don't want the friends to think they are stupid.

 

 

[CHABSENTIA]

Mark,

 

You said that the dealer should have sent the customers to another dealer if he could not offer a reasonable price.

 

I think you are completely out of touch with reality. It is a nice though it theory. But the dealer is not there to be nice, or to counsel the customer. He is there to make a living, and his income is not guaranteed by a salary or a wage.

 

Imagine a car salesmen who has a customer come in looking to sell his car. The car has a book value of $2,000, but the salesmen can only offer $1,000 for whatever reason. And the salesmen then tells the customer, "sorry, take it to the dealer next door, we can't pay you a fair price." Then watch the salesmen be immediately fired, and escorted off the lot.

 

You are recommending the dealer turn away business. That is not the reality of the world we are in.

 

Does Best Buy tell it's customers to go buy their computers at Walmart because it's a better deal for the customer?

 

I really don't know what else to say.

\\

 

You can't compare Best Buy with Walmart and use it as an Example for Cin Dealers. I do not have to be Internet Knowlegeable to go to the HP.com website and look up the price of a computer and "build" it myself. If I am in a Market for a Computer and not Internet Literate then all I have to do is get a Newspaper and look at the prices for a comparabl Computer at both Wal Mart and Best Buy. This is not the case with a coin dealer.Not every Coin Dealer is going to give the same price for the same date circulated Morgan Dollar. The point here is which ones are by nature close to the "fair" price and which ones by their actions are scumbags?If one of those Mercury dimes happenednto be a 1916D even though it was badly circulated then do you really think that $81.00 for all the Mecury dimes and the 16 Morgans were a fair price.

 

 

It is absurd to compare Prices on a New Computer with National prices.

[CHABSENTIA]

Good grief, I am tired of this conversation. I have dealt with good coin dealers like Mark, and with scum bags that I would wish would get what is coming to them. So have all of you. I can not believe that this conversation is happening. Some of you have lost sight of the fact that it is not "Professional" (with a capital "P") to be a crook, unless you are a professional crook! Then I guess it is fine with some of you.

 

All of you complain about scum bag dealers who try to take advantage of you but then you de facto say it is allowed for people to behave this way, because you have to know how to protect yourselves. Get real, do you really enjoy dealing with scumbags who try to cheat you every time. Do you really want to live in a world run by crooked used car dealers?

 

Actually, the reality is that none of us should have to put up with this cheating nonsense. I happen to remember the time when you could do a deal on a handshake and actually some businesses (i.e. stock trading, commodities trading) are still run this way, as is much of the high end coin business. Do you think that Jack Lee always had a contract for every coin that he bought? Also, in those not-to-distant times, most people operated by the Golden Rule. Do some of you, who are justifying this nonsense, remember the Golden Rule?

 

I tried a couple of posts to get you people to think about the position that many seniors are in and was totally ignored. Just wait! Most of you are going to be in that position someday because most people live long enough now become elderly and senile. If you think cheating people just because they are old and/or not able to protect themselves in this crappy modern world that we live in, should be allowed, just wait, you will have wonderful Golden Years in a world of no ethics!

 

I would have jumped that scum-bag dealer, in a minute, in public. He had it coming, period, no brainer! I do not care what modern "Political Correctness" is or what that scum bag dealer thinks of me as long as it contains a good measure of fear and respect! I would consider it an honor to be kicked out of this scum's store and I would tell him on the way out what a weasel he was.

 

Well I guess that is my sermon for the month!

 

Which was my point earlier about the handshake. I remember an incident when I was a Manager in Retail. i can remember when a handhske was better than a Contract and was talking to a Customer that was older then myself. He knew the Owners who had started this Chain. They were located in a shopping Center where there were several Mens shops. The Store had not yet branched out into Soft Goods. The members of the Familes each had differnt Partnerships in the different Stores.They would all meet once a week ti discuss Business.

 

The Customer told me that one day long before there had been one of these Family Meetings.The Discussion was whether to go into Soft Goods. One of the two sons of the owner said that he had promised the Owners of the Mens shops that they would get first consideration if the Store branched out into this area. The Owner asked his son if it was in writing to which the Son replied " No, but I gave my word and we shook on it". The Father replied" If it was not in writing then lets vore on it". The Majority decided to go into Soft Goods. This was on a Thursday and Monday when they came back to work the Son was not to be found. The Father hired Detectives ans it tok over a year to find him and he refused to return.

 

Many people today are not old enough to remember those days and many would laugh about it if told that people actually lived t and did Business that way.

 

[just-john]

not to change the topic but it would be interesting to see what the price spreads would be for the same coin taken to multiple dealers.Say a NGC silver eagle or silver proof state quarter or a common ms63 Morgan if everybody used the same coin it would be interesting.

Say pick a day in OCT pick something everybody has some of and the same grade and company take it to a local BM sell it post price realized/ what would be the spread??