What would you do if NGC...

[Doogy]

First off, i would not be pleased if this happened to my coins. Even if it improves the appearance or protects the coin, they should not conserve anything without prior consent from the owner.

 

It frustrates me that NGC and PCGS does this, as this is certainly not the first time it has happened. NGC does this it seems, and PCGS conserves US coins that are sent in for grade review by dipping them or 'improving them', and sending them back to the owner without compensation or an explanation what was done. Both services need to be much more transparent with this practice.

 

 

[coinman1794]

Doogy,

 

I'm glad I'm not the only one who's noticed this going on. If they had improved the original coin I wouldn't care, but I don't consider darkening the coin to purple an improvement.

 

Thanks for all the input, everyone. I just wanted to see if I was alone in my frustration and what I should reasonably expect in terms of recourse. I have already submitted a written inquiry to NGC customer service and made a post in the ask NGC area, but it's the weekend....Tomorrow I hope to be in direct contact with NGC to find out what the story is.

 

 

 

 

 

[Oldtrader3]

Do you live in a warm or hot climate? I have had several EAC coins and Flying Eagle cents turn blue in the slab. The plastic itself maybe changes the refraction of the (nanometer length of) light beams being reflected, which would change the color reflected? IMHO, plasticizer chemicals in the slab and lack of slab breathability (?) may be the culprit. IMHO, I don't think NGC would conserve the coin without asking. However this change to blue or violet has happened to my copper coins over time, in slabs.

[Doogy]

If i may clarify..............I have heard (and seen) of them (both major services) doing this to coins that have turned in the holder, "grade review", et cetera. I have not however heard of them doing it upon first submission through the regular grading channels. Not saying it hasn't happened, just haven't heard of it. Please let us know how customer service handles it.

 

as an aside, one of the reason i don't collect coppers, is the horror stories i've heard of it turning in all brands of TPG plastic, especially in humid climates. i prefer my coins to be stable over time, at least as much as possible.

[coinman1794]

This coin, along with 2 others on the invoice, was conserved without any question whatsoever, and without my consent. Aside from the new color, the small partial print I mentioned earler is gone from the reverse, along with this coins other original characteristics. Also, this coin was slabbed last week so it hasn't had much time to be affected by humidity.

 

I truly respect everyones' opinions, but I would not have started this thread had there been any question about the circumstances. I'm hoping merely to find out why, and then what can be done about it.

 

 

[coinman1794]

If i may clarify..............I have heard (and seen) of them (both major services) doing this to coins that have turned in the holder, "grade review", et cetera. I have not however heard of them doing it upon first submission through the regular grading channels. Not saying it hasn't happened, just haven't heard of it. Please let us know how customer service handles it.

 

I have experienced both senarios on a regular basis. I will update you on what they tell me.

[DirtyGoldMan]

Is it possible that the horrible, thick semi-transparent plastic that NGC uses is refracting the light in such a way that it appears that the color has changed when it really hasn't? Would you be willing to crack out the coin and see if this is the case?

[coinman1794]

A nice shot at the NGC slab there, sage! This is an interesting theory, but I am sure this is not the case. The coin was treated and the surfaces were clearly stripped of everything they had accumulated over 250+ years (or at least since it's last syonide dip in the 19th century??!), including a faint, partial fingerprint on the reverse.

[physics-fan3.14]

Is it possible that the horrible, thick semi-transparent plastic that NGC uses is refracting the light in such a way that it appears that the color has changed when it really hasn't? Would you be willing to crack out the coin and see if this is the case?

 

This is not the case. A simple examination of the optics is all that is necessary. Take a window for example - a plain, ordinary, smooth window with no bends or imperfections and such. If light enters the pane of glass at 45 degrees, that we will say has a thickness of 5 mm, it will be refracted to some other angle. It will then traverse the thickness of the glass at this refracted angle. However, upon exiting the glass, it will be refracted back to the original angle , assuming there is air on both sides of the glass. The only difference will be that the image is shifted imperceptibly. A far more noticeable shift in the image would occur if the media on either side of the glass were different, for example if there were water on one side. When you look into a fishbowl you notice this. You will not get a color change simply by going through glass, or plastic or whatever the case may be. The material simply changes the angle of refraction.

[Oldtrader3]

Actually, unlike glass, plastic sheet shifts near infrared light and filters some (red) light out thereby shifting red towards blue (or violet). Almost all optical grade plastics have a UV absorbing, chemical agent in the polymer, glass does not have this chemical agent. You may be seeing blue that is actually red through NGC's plastic.

 

Additionally, Heritage takes lousy pictures of copper. The copper in my large cent and half cent coins that were sold through Heritage were color shifted in their photos to make several coin's, violet toning look BS brown! I could not recognise my own coins in Heritage's pictures! Their picture quality for my copper coins made me want to throw up!

[coinman1794]

Indeed, Heritage has poor pictures, and not just for copper. However, I have the advantage seeing the coin in person, owning the coin for 6 months, and knowing exactly what it looked like and what was on the surfaces before and after.

[BankNote1]

I have never had a coin messed with by NGC. Although, I have found that sometimes a coin will look different out of the holder. But purple and magenta look better to me than just brown. I like the second picture much better than the first one.

[IGWT]

Coinman -- We're searching for some explanation other than the conclusion that you've reached only because the thought of NGC/NCS altering coins without owners' knowledge or consent is almost too horrible to contemplate. We just don't want it to be true. Please let us know what NGC has to say.

[EZ_E]

We just don't want it to be true.

 

Yeah, and I want Elvis to be alive but that ain't changing nothin'...

[cpm9ball]

We just don't want it to be true.

 

Yeah, and I want Elvis to be alive but that ain't changing nothin'...

 

The heck with Elvis! I'd rather have gas @ 25c a gallon.

 

Chris

[WoodenJefferson]

I have been following this thread since it's inception and have not commented because I was waiting for all the facts to come in before coming to any conclusion. I know images can be very deceiving, not intentionally but the actual object being imaged can morph into something similar but yet different.

 

As an example of this, I'm going to change an image of Albert Einstein into Marilyn Monroe....impossible you say. Take a look!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Look at the image of Albert on your monitor, now back away slowly...more, more...up to 10 to 15 feet if need be, does Miss Monroe appear?

 

I'm waiting to hear what NGC has to say about this coin before comment.

 

 

[coinman1794]

Pam Kesten is currently looking into the matter.

 

I must say, however, I may not have been accurate in describing the original change...it was in safety deposite over the weekend, and having been away from the coin for 2 days, my reunion with it has made me realize its more of a violet to icy blue than just purple.

 

And there's NO question the coin was conserved; you can TAKE IT TO THE BANK that it was conserved (no pun intended). Plain and simple: Elvis is dead, and George II is all blue in the face.

[ant]

i have many slabs in my SDB and none have done that in the yr+ they have been there.

 

let us know what you get told

[rbrown4]

Very interesting Woody, so who really sang Happy Birthday to JFK was it Albert or Marylin??? Another scandal perhaps.

 

Rey

 

PS If I send you a picture of me, can you make me look like anybody I choose or even better how about my soon to be EX???

[coinman1794]

Well of course, the coin was only in my safety deposite box for two days, and that was this weekend, after it returned from NGC, treated and slabbed.

 

 

[jackson64]

there was a recent post about this by someone else also...I have suspected that it was done to a few of my coins also but the results were actually satisfactory...(on silver coins)...there was one of my Walkers, a 45-d, that had an overall light golden color and came back white and less lustrous...was suspicious of the unwanted change there...

[coinman1794]

Yes, this has been happening with me too, and the results have been very favorable on many a silver coin they've treated...including two coins on the same invoice as the 1753, on which they removed haze and really brought out the luster on the coins without disturbing the patina. But they should have known not to mess with the brown copper coin. I will note, however, that the technical quality of the 1753 coin is incredible...it's just not the original piece I submitted.

[coinman1794]

After speaking at great length with Scott Schetcher, he told me that Ken Krah reviewed the images and said that they DO show a change beyond the affects of different lighting conditions. Beyond that, they deny any knowledge of conservation work being done by them on the coin (s), suggesting that perhaps postal radiation was to blame for the changing surface color. I pointed out that that doesn’t explain how the surfaces became so squeaky clean; the fingerprint on the reverse and the dirt and haze on the obverse high points and fields is all gone. Not able to offer me any further explanations, Scott said they would re-examine the coin for me at any time in the future and give me free conservation on it if I so choose. I told them I will keep an eye on it but there won’t be any immediate need to send it in, because the work had already been done. He also told me that Rick Montgomery personally assigned the MS63BN grade and that the coin should meet inspection.

 

Regardless of what happened to my coin (s), I am pleased that NGC has given me an avenue to have it cared for if it should begin to react further, and I guess that’s the best I can expect. I am not going to post any other comments on this thread because my only purpose in bringing it up was to seek advice from anyone with similar experiences, not to cause any kind or manner of trouble.

[dooly]

Respect mate (thumbs u and respect to NGC for not pulling posts hear unlike some other forums....

[Oldtrader3]

I did have PCGS dip a coin that I submitted. When complained, they said that it had changed in the packing material, HA! When I posted a complaint on their site, it mysteriously disappeared. At least NGC dealt with it diplomatically.

[EZ_E]

Respect mate (thumbs u and respect to NGC for not pulling posts hear unlike some other forums....

 

Why? For being obtuse and evasive?

 

Beyond that, they deny any knowledge of conservation work being done by them on the coin (s), suggesting that perhaps postal radiation was to blame for the changing surface color

 

Hey, I'll tell you what. Send the coin to me and I'll irradiate it all day long. Wanna bet that we'll see no change?

 

I've had the same shannigan pulled on me before and I did not appreciate it one bit! This is not their property but they are behaving as if it were.

[jesbroken]

Here is a photo of a half cent that I only manipulated the color and got a similiar coloration. Hope your coin is satisfactory when you get it. Great eye, Greg.

Jim

 

[dooly]

Respect mate (thumbs u and respect to NGC for not pulling posts hear unlike some other forums....

 

Why? For being obtuse and evasive?

 

No for respecting Freedom of speech (thumbs u

[Doogy]

After speaking at great length with Scott Schetcher, he told me that Ken Kraw reviewed the images and said that they DO show a change beyond the affects of different lighting conditions. Beyond that, they deny any knowledge of conservation work being done by them on the coin (s), suggesting that perhaps postal radiation was to blame for the changing surface color. I pointed out that that doesn’t explain how the surfaces became so squeaky clean; the fingerprint on the reverse and the dirt and haze on the obverse high points and fields is all gone. Not able to offer me any further explanations, Scott said they would re-examine the coin for me at any time in the future and give me free conservation on it if I so choose. I told them I will keep an eye on it but there won’t be any immediate need to send it in, because the work had already been done. He also told me that Rick Montgomery personally assigned the MS63BN grade and that the coin should meet inspection.

 

Regardless of what happened to my coin (s), I am pleased that NGC has given me an avenue to have it cared for if it should begin to react further, and I guess that’s the best I can expect. I am not going to post any other comments on this thread because my only purpose in bringing it up was to seek advice from anyone with similar experiences, not to cause kind or manner of trouble.

 

 

FYI, Ken Krah is pretty much the best in the business when it comes to world coins, and he is also one of the main reasons i now submit all of my world coins to NGC. I'd take him at his word; now whether or not someone below him is not exactly being honest, who knows. I'd wager though that he asked the questions and is giving you an answer based on what he was told. nice to see NGC step up and answer it, offer their help, as well as allowing this to be talked about here.

[WoodenJefferson]

EPA web site

 

There may be some truth to linking the post office to this copper capper.

 

In the article on the EPA website:

 

chemicals released from plastics in the mail,

 

The irradiation process sterilizes mail by passing it through a high-energy beam--an electron beam or x-ray. This beam is ionizing radiation that delivers in a dose approximately 2 million times more potent than a chest x-ray. The beam penetrates deep into the mail to destroy germs and viruses and is capable of penetrating letter trays and packages.