Mintages for Proof Morgans

[cpm9ball]

MikeKing isn't the only one who would love to have a PF Morgan. Out of curiosity, I checked the QDB Red Book of Morgan Silver Dollars and extracted these numbers:

 

1878 8TF - 500 estimate

1878 7TF - 250 estimate

1878 7TF '79 Reverse - 25-50

1879 - 1,100

1880 - 1,355

1881 - 984

1882 - 1,100

1883 - 1,039

1884 - 875

1885 - 930

1886 - 886

1887 - 710

1888 - 833

1889 - 811

1890 - 590

1891 - 650

1892 - 1,245

1893 - 792

1894 - 972

1895 - 880

1896 - 762

1897 - 731

1898 - 735

1899 - 846

1900 - 912

1901 - 813

1902 - 777

1903 - 755

1904 - 650

1921 - 25-30 estimate

 

I'll take one of each............and make it to go, please!

 

Chris

[WoodenJefferson]

Well now, there was 880 of the 1895's, plenty for everyone here at the Forum.

 

Where does the line start?

[Oldtrader3]

The 1895 is not the rarest, just the most expensive because there were no business strikes for 1895. Most other proofs from the 1890's have about the same proof pops in each grade.

[cpm9ball]

If I had my choice of any two, I'd take the 1878 8TF because it was the first design struck and the 1921 because it was the year Mom was born.

 

Chris

[WoodenJefferson]

Aren't there only about 75-80 Proof 1895's accounted for out of that original 880?

 

Where in the heck do a large percentage of Proof coins of this caliber end up anyway?

 

 

 

 

Edit to add: A Zerbe is not in your immediate future

[cpm9ball]

Aren't there only about 75-80 Proof 1895's accounted for out of that original 880?

 

Where in the heck do a large percentage of Proof coins of this caliber end up anyway?

 

According to QDB, there are 468 in certified grades PF60 and higher as of 2004.

 

Where else do you think they end up? In some high-security vault in a 50-room mansion owned by someone who has so much money that he doesn't know what to do with it, and the coin lies there for decades where nobody can enjoy it.

 

Chris

[World Colonial]

Aren't there only about 75-80 Proof 1895's accounted for out of that original 880?

 

Where in the heck do a large percentage of Proof coins of this caliber end up anyway?

 

According to QDB, there are 468 in certified grades PF60 and higher as of 2004.

 

Where else do you think they end up? In some high-security vault in a 50-room mansion owned by someone who has so much money that he doesn't know what to do with it, and the coin lies there for decades where nobody can enjoy it.

 

Chris

 

No, actually many of them are available right on Heritage. It took me less than 5 minutes to pull up every single date and find plenty of specimens for every single one of them, including the 1921 and 1895.

 

Are these coins desirable? Yes. Hard to find? Hardly, if this is any indication. The branch mint proofs are rare, as I did not see any (though I did not check any listing in detail) but the 1921 mintage quoted above must apply to the Zerbe. I saw six 1921's since 2007 alone which would hardly equate to a mintage of 25-30 in most circumstances.

 

The above mintages might seem low, but that is only compared to most other issues such as moderns. Its also a function of price but there is a distinction between scarcity and availability. Most coins with mintages at this level are easy to find.

[cpm9ball]

The QDB Red Book doesn't mention any proofs struck at the branch mints. I can only assume that all were struck in Philadelphia.

 

Chris

[rrantique]

The QDB Red Book doesn't mention any proofs struck at the branch mints. I can only assume that all were struck in Philadelphia.

 

Chris

 

Breen wrote that 12 Proofs were struck on February 20, 1879 "on reopening of the New Orleans branch as a coining facility" (the Mint had been closed since 1861, when the Confederacy took it over). PCGS has certified 5 "Branch Mint" Proofs of this date - 3 PRBM-64s and 2 PRBM-65s.

 

 

[cpm9ball]

The QDB Red Book doesn't mention any proofs struck at the branch mints. I can only assume that all were struck in Philadelphia.

 

Chris

 

Breen wrote that 12 Proofs were struck on February 20, 1879 "on reopening of the New Orleans branch as a coining facility" (the Mint had been closed since 1861, when the Confederacy took it over). PCGS has certified 5 "Branch Mint" Proofs of this date - 3 PRBM-64s and 2 PRBM-65s.

 

 

Then I guess QDB didn't do his homework.

 

Chris

[World Colonial]

I only know about the branch mint proofs because I saw them a few years ago online. It was either on the NGC website or possibly in an auction catalog, I simply cannot remember which but it might have been Stacks. I had never heard of them either and have no idea how many were made or what years but I believe I saw at least one each from CC, S and O.

 

There are also other issues with branch mint proofs so this should not be completely surprising. The 1838-O half dollar is well known and I believe there is an 1844-O eagle. Lastly, I heard about an 1854-S double eagle (which would be one of the great rarities of all time) but do not recall where.

[rrantique]

Coin facts.

 

12 1884-O

03 1884-CC

01 1883-O Unique

unk # of 1921-S Zerbe proofs

[MikeKing]

 

Where else do you think they end up? In some high-security vault in a 50-room mansion owned by someone who has so much money that he doesn't know what to do with it, and the coin lies there for decades where nobody can enjoy it.

 

Chris

 

I thought I put up a post saying that I wanted a PROOF Morgan, not that I had one.

[cpm9ball]

 

Where else do you think they end up? In some high-security vault in a 50-room mansion owned by someone who has so much money that he doesn't know what to do with it, and the coin lies there for decades where nobody can enjoy it.

 

Chris

 

I thought I put up a post saying that I wanted a PROOF Morgan, not that I had one.

 

Um.......er......I think that is what I stated in the very first sentence of this thread.

 

Chris

[cpm9ball]

No, actually many of them are available right on Heritage. It took me less than 5 minutes to pull up every single date and find plenty of specimens for every single one of them, including the 1921 and 1895.

 

Okay, so where are the other 23,000 (give or take)?

 

Chris

[RWB]

A couple of notes:

***Walter Breen claimed a lot of things, some supported by documentation others not. Most of his “branch mint proof” claims are just that – unsubstantiated claims. Sellers of these pieces love to latch on to this and assert the coins are really special, or “specimens” or anything else to boost the price. I recall one prominent auctioneer of by-years who hardly ever sold an “AU” coin – everything was “virtually uncirculated” or “trace of wear” or “insignificant rubbing.”

 

***In 1895 12,000 silver dollars were struck and properly delivered, including assay and special assay pieces. However, no piece struck for circulation is presently known.

 

***Proof pieces from production batches of proof dollars show up in the Assay Commission records for most years.

 

***An unknown quantity of “semi-proof” dollars dated 1921 were struck on a medal press. It is unclear if they were actually struck in 1921, or in May 1922. The first mention of these being available was in May 1922 by the mint collection curator. The curator felt these coins were not “true” proofs but were very nearly so. These are commonly called Chapman proofs, although there is no evidence they were actually struck for the Philadelphia coin dealer.

 

[BillJones]

Coin facts.

 

12 1884-O

03 1884-CC

01 1883-O Unique

unk # of 1921-S Zerbe proofs

 

You can add to this list, among others, 12 1893-CC Proof dollars that the mint produced at the time of its closing.

[cpm9ball]

I want to thank everyone for their input. It was actually more than I had anticipated, and I learned some new things.

 

Chris

[World Colonial]

No, actually many of them are available right on Heritage. It took me less than 5 minutes to pull up every single date and find plenty of specimens for every single one of them, including the 1921 and 1895.

 

Okay, so where are the other 23,000 (give or take)?

 

Chris

 

I do not know obviously but the same question could be asked of any coin. Some of them undoubtedly have been lost and others are hoarded as you mentioned. The points I am trying to make are:

 

These mintages are not low except in relative terms;

The coins are easily available for those who have the money to buy them.

[RWB]

PS; The "Zerbe proof" things are nothing but nice proof-likes, given a cute name and hyped for absurd prices. If you read Renaissance of American Coinage 1909-1915 you'll begin to understand why no one at the SF Mint woud do any favors for Zerbe. Additionally, the SF Mint did not have equipment to strike proofs in 1921.

[rrantique]

PS; The "Zerbe proof" things are nothing but nice proof-likes, given a cute name and hyped for absurd prices. If you read Renaissance of American Coinage 1909-1915 you'll begin to understand why no one at the SF Mint woud do any favors for Zerbe. Additionally, the SF Mint did not have equipment to strike proofs in 1921.

 

I figured the same Roger, thanks. (thumbs u

 

I missed the 1893-CC's thanks Biill (thumbs u