Raw vs Slabbed..?

[proofs03-migration]

I have seen many arguments lately from uneducated sellers of coins who swear that slabbed coins are worth more money than coins which are of equal quality, but not in a slab. My question is, does anyone feel that a coin that is say MS65 in a slab, or in a Dansco album are they not worth the same? I equate this to buying a car from a dealer, or from an individual. The car is worth what it is worth despite the wax job. Am I wrong?

 

Steve

[nwcs]

The coin is worth the same in theory, but the slab has added value. Specifically, the slab (assuming reputable one) offers:

 

1. A measure of confidence in the grade which translates generally to a buyer being willing to risk more

2. Insurance in the form of overgraded coins in slabs from the company

3. Insurance in the form of coins that turned or had other undetectable problems in the slab

4. Plastic holder.

 

And then there are the things that people will add to the mix:

 

1. Preference for in slab or not or which company slabbed it

2. What the person intends to do with the coin after purchasing it

3. The experience of the person and their confidence in evaluating coins

4. Ability to judge a coin's grade consistently

 

So the essence is that a slabbed coin and an unslabbed coin share identical value. But the reality is that there are some differences between them and so you cannot expect the pricing to be the same between them.

[Oldtrader3]

Hypothetically this is true. A MS65 should be valued the same whether slabbed or raw, BUT this equality often does not exist in the real world. The inequality is because grading is not an exact science which in turn, creates greater risk for buying raw coins. Many other factors also enter into the grade equation, such as strike, tone, surface texture, luster breaks, marks, their location on the coin's surface and the human factor of the grader.

[James_OldeTowne]

There are most collectors who would say a coin is worth more in a slab, but for early issues (pre-1836) and half-cents and copper, I can assure the coin is worth more un-certified, or at least that's been our experience. Such coins are much more difficult to grade, so a slabbed "number" just doesn't do these coins justice. You can't take into account uneven strikes, die-marriage anomalies, surface quality, market availability and overall eye-appeal lumped into a single, generic "number". Experienced collectors of these older series do not trust slabs for the problems they can hide, nor do they trust the incredibly inconsistent "market-grading" of such coins.

 

Again, this pertains only to the early coins that I deal in. I think it is much different for modern issues. For many moderns, the coin hardly matters at all. The "value" is based more on someone else's opinion than on the actual merits of the coin. It's a very different market from the older coins.

 

James

[jom]

Basically, it comes down to knowledge. If you know how to grade that particular series of coins then a raw piece should be worth EXACTLY the same...to YOU. There in lies the problem however. You won't necessarily be selling that coin to someone who has the same knowledge you do on that series. Unfortunately, not everyone is a good grader or knowledgable about EVERY series. So the benefit of the TPG is that it is supposed to be able to grade all the series with reasonable accuracy and consistancy. So the market places a premium on slabbed coins because of this. Unfortunately, the TPG's aren't perfect either so we have a very inefficent market to work/play in, hence the sharp differences you see in coins with the same grade....

 

jom

[James_OldeTowne]

jom, you make an interesting point. I deal in uncertified coins, and quite frankly, I will NOT sell a coin to someone who is unknowledgable about them (early coins). One of the things that keeps jadecoin from becoming a bigger player is that we just won't push our material on unknowledgeable / unsuspecting collectors.

 

At the Silver Dollar show, there is a guy who hangs around our table pretty often. I know he wants to buy a coin from us, and he's asked many questions. I can tell he's probing for ideas on what he should get into. We could probably very easily make a $1000 sale. But from talking with him, from his questions, I've picked up that he's really a newbie. He's only really ever bought slabs. So I always end up patiently answering all his questions, and I always tell him NOT to buy from us, until the day comes that he's SURE what he wants to collect. Until he picks up real knowledge, it's better off that he keeps buying encapsulated coins.

 

It's difficult for someone who's just not sure of himself yet to appreciate coins on their own merits. There's always a seed of doubt, and that's where encapsulated coins are beneficial.

[proofs03-migration]

What happens to the generations behind us. I know I have spent most of my 48 years enjoying coins. I have finally settled on just eagles as there really is to much information needed to be good and knowledgeable. Don't get me wrong, I love them all, and have owned so many I can't count. I have taught my son's how to grade, and how to continue their education on these fine history objects as I call them. I just can't pay extra money, and a lot, for a plastic cover. I guess I am old fashion.

 

Steve

[Newmismatist]

Basically, it comes down to knowledge. If you know how to grade that particular series of coins then a raw piece should be worth EXACTLY the same...to YOU. There in lies the problem however. You won't necessarily be selling that coin to someone who has the same knowledge you do on that series. Unfortunately, not everyone is a good grader or knowledgable about EVERY series. So the benefit of the TPG is that it is supposed to be able to grade all the series with reasonable accuracy and consistancy. So the market places a premium on slabbed coins because of this. Unfortunately, the TPG's aren't perfect either so we have a very inefficent market to work/play in, hence the sharp differences you see in coins with the same grade....

 

jom

 

Ditto all of the above and I'll just add, that on the buying end there's no difference IF you know how to grade the coin you're buying BUT - when you go to sell the coin, the inevitable Q is: What's wrong with this coin? Why isn't it slabbed? Therefore, in order to make the coin "marketable" to get the coin's "real value", it'll have to be slabbed, or you won't get what its worth as most dealers will only buy it at their most conservative estimate of the lowest possible slab grade. Unless you're selling to a collector who knows how to grade the coin you're selling, generally the same is true.

 

Now I can think of numerous exceptions to this (the 1870-S $3 Gold, which is unique, the slab wouldn't matter at al)l, many rare patterns, same result, I don't think John Ford's coins that were just sold by Stacks were slabbed, but that is a very specialized Market which operates independant of TPGSs

 

But, unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on your point of view), dealers virtually all require slabs before they'll buy, and unless you have an independant means of selling your coins, there's a strong probablity that they'll be in slabs if you want to get your best price. (this may not be true with a lot of moderns where sometimes the cost of the slab exceeds the value of the coin - no flames please - I said "a lot", NOT All).

 

 

[proofs03-migration]

Ah, here lies the problem. It may seem that either the new dealers, or old that cannot grade a coin, and depend on grading services to do what professional coin dealers already know. I can't imagine a serious coin collector without at least a 10x loupe, and/or microscope to help them view what they have. I know it takes me a long time to view one coin. These same instruments help with good detailed photos.

 

Please don't fuss at me here as I don't mean disrepect, just having a discussion, and I like to learn, so if I need better information please let me know. I am not trying to start any argument so I hope no offense has been taken.

 

Thanks,

 

Steve

[James_OldeTowne]

(((Ditto all of the above and I'll just add, that on the buying end there's no difference IF you know how to grade the coin you're buying BUT - when you go to sell the coin, the inevitable Q is: What's wrong with this coin? Why isn't it slabbed?)))

 

Newmismatist, let me turn the tables on you. Again, speaking only for the material I know, which is early (pre-1836) coins, what I've found is that this trend is reversing itself for slabs. Any more, for us, when a knowledgeable collector sees a bust half or large cent in a slab, he wonders what's wrong with the coin, that you have to keep it in the slab for it to sell! In other words, the inconsistency of the grading services, where cleaned or ugly problem coins, or most often, overgrades, occur routinely, is a reputation that slabs have started picking up. We have simply found that early material sells faster and more easily RAW.

 

Like always though, for the more casual collector, they still want encapsulated coins, even for earlier types.

 

James

[Newmismatist]

wrong[/i] with the coin, that you have to keep it in the slab for it to sell! In other words, the inconsistency of the grading services, where cleaned or ugly problem coins, or most often, overgrades, occur routinely, is a reputation that slabs have started picking up. We have simply found that early material sells faster and more easily RAW.

James

 

James, there's no tables to turn, you're concentrating in an area that has die hard collectors who DON"T want slabbed coins (EAC collectors) and in your area, that's correct. I also collect Ancient coins, an area that the dealers and collectors REFUSE to buy coins in slabs. That doesn't prove or disprove what I previoulsy said. It proves that there are certain segments in the coin collecting fraternity who don't like slabs. BUT, try and sell a high end MS Red Lincoln penny raw - you'll be able to sell it, but not for what it will ultimately bring in the market place (Note I did not say what's its worth - I've recently heard of a 1940 MS68 1CN selling for $30-$40K - that may have been its selling price, but it's a bit more than it's "worth").

 

If all collectors put their coins in Dansco albums, they'd want there coins raw & the slab market would die, but collectors seem to want the comfort of being told what is the grade of their coin (at least someone else's opinion of what the grade is), and unless that drastically changes in the vast majority of the collectible US Coin series, I afraid slabs are here to stay.

 

I QUIT collecting US coins in 1986 and switched to Ancient coins (which I still collect) because I was quite disturbed at what I felt was the total perversion of coin collecting by the TPGSs - I came back when I realized that I could still collect what I like on my terms and ignore the TPGSs when it suited my collecting goals. If I like the coin, I buy the coin based on MY assessment of what it is. If the PCGS calls that 1963 Pr Lincoln cent that sold for $39K a Pr70 DCam and I grade it a Pr65Cam, I don't have to buy it as for what THEY think it is. If I want a Proof 1963 Lincon cent I can buy a Mint sealed 1963 Proof set for about $12 or so, have a nice Pr63 Lincoln 1CN together with the other 4 coins, and I won't feel bad. I won't have risked $39K to own a "POP 1 Registry" coin. I feel perfectly capable of being able to pick out a nice Proof Lincoln Memorial penny w/o having to rely on some "professional" grader who spent 10 seconds "assessing" it before assisging that day's lottery grade, which is exactly my opinion of the current grading of Modern proofs that ALL like virtually identical.

 

Bottom line is that I don't need the TPGSs to tell me what I like, what's nice & what's not, but because I have qualms about the current method of MARKETING coins, doesn't mean that I don't buy slabbed coins. I'm sorry to say, I actually like those little plastic slabs, because now I can show my really high end coins to others w/o worrying that they'll put there grimmy little paws on my Pr66RD IHC, that's as close to virgin as any coin can ever be, and if they sneeze, I don't have to take my "baby" to the emergency room to have the spit removed and when I drop those suckers on the floor, I don't loose 10K! THere's actually an upside to slabs!

I would not have displayed my 1858-1863 Flying Eagle and Indian Head PatternCents at the Baltimore ANA if they had not been in slabs - I would have been too concerned that they could have been damaged just from putting them in and out of the cases!!

 

Bottom line: Collect coins, collect what you like, don't get too hung up on someone else's opinion (the one on the little paper insert), particularly if you know 10X more about the series then that grader knows!

BUT, slabbed may matter when you go to sell because of MARKETING!

JMHO

[paigow_johnny]

If all collectors put their coins in Dansco albums, they'd want there coins raw & the slab market would die

And then there are guys like me who will buy slabbed coins and crack them for a Dansco. Now I've never done that for a "really expensive" coin (which for me would be about $150)...but I upgraded my whole Walker short set buying MS 63-64 slabs and cracking them.

[Leothelion]

does anyone feel that a coin that is say MS65 in a slab, or in a Dansco album are they not worth the same?

 

A raw coin will sell, to a knowledgeable collector, that is!

I would hash it out with the grading companies and get their entire guarantee in writing and the steps to take to make the guarantee legit before buying anything expensive....say over $50.

These past few months with PCGS, dealing with them has become a big risk and a waste of time. NGC and ANACS would be your best bets if you're planning on certifying any coins.

In my opinion, the only logical reason to have a coin certified is for authentication purposes. The second reason would be to have the coin sealed in a holder for preservation purposes. The third reason, if you have interest in knowing which of your coins are the better coins in your collection. And lastly, to sell your coins for a better profit to those collectors who prefer certified coins over raw coins.

If you have ever been to a coin show, 99% of the coins there are raw and they do sell. Most collectable coins are not worth having slabbed. Unless, of course you have some inane desire to have the best certified collection among a handfull of collectors and to ultimately believe that you have the best collection in the world.

 

Leo

 

[MAULEMALL]

but I upgraded my whole Walker short set buying MS 63-64 slabs and cracking them.

And you probably did it on the cheap too.

I think that slabbed Ms 63 /64 Walkers are the deal.

[RobertB]

If you have ever been to a coin show, 99% of the coins there are raw and they do sell.

 

This is a very true statement. In fact, I have never bought slabbed at a show, nor do I see other people buying them often. But, then again, I usually don't buy big dollar coins at shows. I reserve that for online auctions, and always slabbed? I guess what I'm saying is I usually buy anything over $100 in slabs only, and then on online auctions because the prices are generally cheaper.

[panhandlefool]

I'm rather new to all this, and I'm not really sure why I've gotten into coin collecting recently, but here I am. Anyway, I've started with Morgan Silver Dollars, and from the perspective of a newbie I have only bought PCGS and NGC graded coins. Why? As a newbie, I feel that I do not have the requisite knowledge to accurately grade coins and know what I am buying. I'd hate to start collecting, only to find out after 5 years I was clueless in the beginning and wasted a lot of $$ and/or didn't have what I thought I had. To me it's a measure of safety as a buyer, much as you'll often pay an online auction extra for insurance when it's a big purchase or you're unsure of the seller. Not that that always works - more often than I can count I've purchased items online and paid extra for insurance and the item arrived uninsured, but that's a totally different issue. Anyway, for me it's an assurance of what I have, and I suppose I'm willing to pay for it. Nice thread here, BTW.

[jom]

but I upgraded my whole Walker short set buying MS 63-64 slabs and cracking them.

 

 

As a newbie, I feel that I do not have the requisite knowledge to accurately grade coins and know what I am buying. I'd hate to start collecting, only to find out after 5 years I was clueless in the beginning and wasted a lot of $$ and/or didn't have what I thought I had.

 

I would like to state that your worst case senerio you mention CAN still happen even if you just buy NGC or PCGS graded coins. This is based on personal experience, BTW. You will certainly limit you downside using the TPG's but you could still end up with [!@#%^&^].

 

You've started with a good series (Morgans) because they are relatively easy to grade. But your lack of grading skills isn't really the problem. For newbies (again, based on my own experiece) it is the lack of knowing what a NICE coin should look like. Or to put it better: It's not knowing the difference between GRADE and QUALITY. No matter what some might want to tell you grade and quality are NOT the same thing, IMO. The only way to remedy this is to look at a LOT of coins. It certainly isn't the worst job in the world.

 

Collect coins, collect what you like, don't get too hung up on someone else's opinion

 

I got slammed for stating this exact opinion on the PCGS board last month. Too funny. Should we slam you too?

 

jom

 

 

[TomB]

The slab can serve to make the coin more liquid to the general market. The cost of holding the coin raw vs the improved liquidity of the coin in the slab is equal to the increased value of the coin.

[IrishMike]

There is no question that a lot of coins are more liquid in slabs and some that it makes very little difference to hard core collectors. For me it is a simple issue, I derive much more pleasure owning them without the plastic. No doubt other collectors prefer to have them in slabs and I can see all the good reasons for it.

 

However until and unless I decide to purchase expensive coins I will continue to buy mostly raw coins or crack them out if bought graded. I will admit to owning several slabbed coins and to even submitting some, primarily to sell them. As others have said buy what enjoy but remember all the caveats both pro and con when you do.

[Newmismatist]

Ok - here's for the Purists - Never been slabbed, never will be slabbed!

 

EDITED to Add: - Whoops - it's OT - this is the US Coin forum - don't look! it's, not a US Coin!

[GDJMSP]

Quite a coin that one - you should make more mistakes like that

[TomB]

Holy [!@#%^&^] that's nice!

[Newmismatist]

Well OK (this is what I buy when I don't like what's in the slabs) - it's still OT, but I'll post another of those "funny" looking Raw coins - Definately NOT a slabable coin ( - this is the guy who faught Russell Crow in the Colliseum in the movie the Gladiator - He was a "bit" crazy - he actually thought he was a descendent of Hercules, so he struck this coin depicting himself as the demi-God Hercules)

[BillJones]

The trouble with most raw coins that you see on bouse floors these days is that they are either too common and too inexpensive to be worth slabbing, or they a BIG problem that would make it impossible to get them into a PCGS or NGC holder. I'd advise anyone who is getting ready to pay big bucks for a raw coin to examine it VERY carefully. Watch out for AT, rim nicks, rim nicks that have been filed down, environmental damage and yes, counterfeits.

 

Slabs make even ordinary coins easier to sell. That's just the way the market is these days.

[James_OldeTowne]

The common theme I've picked up on is that the coin is not more valuable in a slab, but is more liquid, and that's the main reason to buy certified coins(?). Believe it or not, I've just made that realization (duh).

 

To me, that doesn't make good commentary on this hobby! Are most collectors today in a hurry to "liquidate" their coins? I guess I'm too old-fashioned. When I buy a coin, even if it's inexpensive, it's with a lot of deliberation, because I plan to keep my coins for a very long time! So liquidity matters little to me, except when I upgrade I guess. Even then, speaking of my personal coins (not from my coin company), I often trade with other collectors.

 

I'm just not sure it's such a great thing that liquidity is so important these days. It's like it's easier just to buy a coin on a whim, since it's liquid in the slab, and put little thought and preparation goes into buying. Just me, I guess....

 

I like other reasons for slabs. No arguing they are probably about the safest holders out there, and having an outside opinion is great. I guess it's a good thing I can only afford to collect cheap coins!

 

James

[MikeKing]

I really wish, really really wish, slabs were gone forever. They really bother me. They are so totally abnormal...I mean...coins are ROUND (generally)...slabs are too bid and too rectangular, too thick.

 

But when I hold an unslabbed coin, or take it out of its holder, I'm scared to death.

If I sneeze, I know I've contaminated that coin for good, because I'm not going to wash it. If I talk over it, I know my saliva is going all over it. If it slips in my fingers while I've got it by the edge, I know I'm going to leave a finger print. In fact, one day, I was examining an almost 200 year old coin and a piece of cotton fiber fell on it. I couldn't blow it off with my mouth...I (forgive me) tried to use canned air (which shoots contaminants all over the place), and ultimately had to remove that darn little fiber with my finger. Did I ruin the surface?

 

I just can't live with that. If I were around in the early 1900's I could, and I"d keep all my coins in a box somewhere, because people were just not that fastidious then, and I probably wouldn't have been either. But now...now I just couldn't live with myself if I put a few hairlines on a hundred + year proof. So I slab.

 

 

[spy88]

Ok---I've read everyones post and I agree with everyones opinion about the subject, both pro and con to having slabbed vs raw. I for one, have switched over from slabbed to raw. Why? As a collector of Jeffersons only, at one point, I had quite a good pr set going. I got to the point were I could either not find or afford to upgrade what I could not afford. So I had all these pretty and shiny and expensive P S Jeffs and felt like I was at a dead end---and I was. So off to Heritage they went for the FUN Bullet Auction this January. Now I collect only raw MS FS Jeffs. A LOT more of a challenge and more FUN!

 

Somewhere along the line, I got hold of a product called Kointain. I'm sure many of you know of this nifty storage unit that comes in all sizes but no one has mentioned it here. I put all my raw coins that I have in them (I used to buy a lot of proof sets and still have many of the coins).

 

But there I was with all my raw Jeffs in Kointainers in one hand and my empty Whitman Classic in the other. Then I got an original idea ! Drill out the holes in the Classic to just accept the Kointainer with Jeff in it! Now I don't have the problem you have MikeKing. I can collect , protect and upgrade without slabbing all in one place. If they get scratched up, just put on a new one!

 

I know I have strayed from the original post but it does relate tangently...sorta...a little...wellll

 

David

[Oldtrader3]

I believe that putting coins into slabs saved the coin collecting industry from the same fate as the stamp collecting industry. Slabs not only protect coins from accidental handling incidents (as Mike said), but they also give some assurance of grade stability. I do not believe that the coin collecting industry would be nearly as large or well financed now, without TPGS's.

 

Personally, I had pretty well decided that coin collecting was a dealer run, 2-grade (split) con-game by the time slabbing started. Every coin that I bought was marked as a "nice" MS65 when I bought it and all of the sudden was an "average" MS63, when I wanted to sell it. This was not only with some dealers, but with many dealers. Slabbing stopped most of that double-dealing chicanery. Dealers still will sometimes whine about NGC/PCGS grades but most will either take-it or leave-it nowadays. I was about to quit collecting when TPGS's started, but they leveled the playing field for collectors.

[Wihlborg]

Personally, I had pretty well decided that coin collecting was a dealer run, 2-grade (split) con-game by the time slabbing started. Every coin that I bought was marked as a "nice" MS65 when I bought it and all of the sudden was an "average" MS63, when I wanted to sell it.

 

Well said Oldtrader3.

 

John

 

[MAULEMALL]

I believe that putting coins into slabs saved the coin collecting industry from the same fate as the stamp collecting industry. Slabs not only protect coins from accidental handling incidents (as Mike said), but they also give some assurance of grade stability. I do not believe that the coin collecting industry would be nearly as large or well financed now, without TPGS's.

 

 

 

 

I agree 100%. In fact they caused me to probably spend more than I would have as It would have taken me years to grade all the different types I have.

 

 

Personally, I had pretty well decided that coin collecting was a dealer run, 2-grade (split) con-game by the time slabbing started. Every coin that I bought was marked as a "nice" MS65 when I bought it and all of the sudden was an "average" MS63, when I wanted to sell it. This was not only with some dealers, but with many dealers. Slabbing stopped most of that double-dealing chicanery. Dealers still will sometimes whine about NGC/PCGS grades but most will either take-it or leave-it nowadays. I was about to quit collecting when TPGS's started, but they leveled the playing field for collectors.

 

 

I have a really cool dealer.It's BU60, BU60+.....I bought a couple real nice Morgans and a couple nice Peace dollars..He will tell me a coin is AU and I will swear it's Mint state....I only buy raw from him because I think get a better value for my money..He is as old school as you can get...On moderns he just doesn't understand how TPG can make him money .A perfect example.....I have up for auction a 1965 ms 63 cameo Lincoln.It has a bid of $50.00 on it now. I bought this coin From him Raw for $1.25.Plus Grading fees I am way ahead of the game. I am going to throw him a few bucks when I get the money..He's a Good Guy.. .