It is extremely important to understand what the "bluesheet" is designed for

[James_OldeTowne]

OK, but what I don't understand is this: Knowing full well that I stated multiple times in the opening post itself that I am giving an opinion, why did you think readers would somehow interpret my statements as being stated as facts? Did I not do enough to emphasize that I was giving an opinion? Honestly, how many more disclaimers could I have written?

 

If I stated my OPINION here in a thread that you had ripped me off in a coin deal, wouldn't you use facts and examples to rebut my OPINION in order to set me straight? Just because someone states something and says it's their opinion doesn't mean it's not subject to debate.

 

I think debate is wonderful. It's how ideas get shared and shaped. But in my opinion, attacks diminish the value of debate.

 

Do your following statements sound like constructive debate? Because I interpreted them as attacks, as did at least one other board member who PMed me:

 

let's ignore the conclusions drawn in the OP

 

Your grand conclusion has so many exceptions that it's unwarranted as a conclusion.

 

The OP made a sweeping, all encompassing statement that ANY dealer making a sight seen offer using Bluesheet was ripping the seller off and unworthy of being a dealer.

 

You just ripped your customer off by over $150k. Congrats.

 

Maybe it's just me, but it sounded like you were trying to prove that my opinion was "wrong" rather than "debatable". I'm sure I've misunderstood, but that's just how it came across to me.

[MikeInFL]

My opinion is that your opinions are your opinioins.

 

Guys, relax, or I'll beat you both with a black-and-bluesheet at FUN.

 

FWIW, you both have valid points and aren't really that far apart, methinks. In the end, a dealer has the right (rightly or wrongly) to bid whatever he/she wants for a coin, and there are many sources for bid levels including auctions, bluesheet, greysheet, numismedia, PCGS, etc....Mike

[cpm9ball]

In the end, a dealer has the right (rightly or wrongly) to bid whatever he/she wants for a coin, and there are many sources for bid levels including auctions, bluesheet, greysheet, numismedia, PCGS, etc....Mike

 

I think I'll use the menu board in the cafeteria at FUN.

 

Chris

[MarkFeld]

Disclaimer: the following represents my personal opinion, and is not necessarily accepted as fact by the general coin market.

 

I believe it is critical to understand use of the bluesheet versus the greysheet. Note the following exact quote from http://www.greysheet.com/cdn/blueuse.asp (I have bolded what I consider the particularly significant passages):

 

There are two very important distinctions between the CDN "Greysheet" and the CCDn "Bluesheet". The CDN reports wholesale BID and ASK prices for properly-graded coins ("Raw" or "Certified"), on a sight-seen basis. The CCDn reports wholesale Bid prices for certified coins on a sight-unseen basis. The sight-unseen certified marketplace has been extremely volatile in the past, a function of the now largely-discarded belief that all rare coins could trade sight-unseen (that is, as long as PCGS or NGC said the coin was an MS63, there was no need to examine the coin before purchase; dealers today have demonstrated that they still wish to examine coins before paying their top price - although they may also be willing to make a sight-unseen Bid at a lower level).

 

I will word this as strongly as I can, because I believe in it so strongly. If someone claiming to be a coin dealer physically looks at your coins, then quotes a sight unseen offer from the bluesheet, you are being scammed. That person is not a legitimate coin dealer, in my opinion.

In many cases (particularly after sight- unseen bids have dropped on given coins) I believe that CCDN/bluesheet prices are higher than actual sight-unseen bids. I don't have case studies to show it, but I think that CCDN prices are more likely to be quickly updated on the upside when sight-unseen bids are raised, then they are on the downside when sight-unseen bids are lowered.

[MikeKing]

Would anyone here give some examples of

greysheet vs bluesheet vs heritage auction archives

for coins listed in both greysheet and bluesheet

 

and perhaps

bluesheet vs heritage auction archives

if coin is not included in greysheet?

 

 

[PovertyRow]

Opine opine opine!

 

This pine is more intriquiing

 

 

 

[jackson64]

why must certain members always be so nasty to everyone..coin collecting is not particle physics..the condescending remarks that collectors don't know jack is a constant onslaught, and sad

 

For most, numismatics is a hobby, and for those who have made it a career-good luck to you, but don't act so haughty --99.9% of the people don't give a rats b-u-t-t..

 

A person looks at a coin that interests them, they check auction histories, price guides, wholesale lists and get a price range...you look at similar coins for the date and grade, compare the qualities that you are looking for in a coin, and decide if your offer should be a bit less or more depending on the appeal it has to you

 

I win the coin or lose the coin..I don't need experts to tell me if I paid too much or got a great deal...I paid what I felt it was worth to own it..or it is selling for more than I think it's worth...

 

IT is ONLY MY OPINION but I feel as if us buyers set the market value anyhow..

[James_OldeTowne]

In many cases (particularly after sight- unseen bids have dropped on given coins) I believe that CCDN/bluesheet prices are higher than actual sight-unseen bids

Mark, I think this same idea was expressed earlier, though I haven't seen any examples given. As a matter of fact, I believe it to be true in very infrequent cases. That being said, do you know of any dealer who, when making offers on coins, checks with the greysheet, then checks the bluesheet to accordingly adjust his offer upward?

 

As an aside, it could be an interesting study to compare blue and grey sheet prices.

 

Edited to ask:

 

Mark, do you agree with my title for this thread?

It is extremely important to understand what the "bluesheet" is designed for

[PerryHall]

I always thought the blue sheet was appropriate for pricing really ugly slabbed coins on a sight seen or unseen basis. Let's face it---none of the sheets, gray or blue, are for pricing PQ coins.

[cpm9ball]

why must certain members always be so nasty to everyone..coin collecting is not particle physics..the condescending remarks that collectors don't know jack is a constant onslaught, and sad

 

For most, numismatics is a hobby, and for those who have made it a career-good luck to you, but don't act so haughty --99.9% of the people don't give a rats b-u-t-t..

 

A person looks at a coin that interests them, they check auction histories, price guides, wholesale lists and get a price range...you look at similar coins for the date and grade, compare the qualities that you are looking for in a coin, and decide if your offer should be a bit less or more depending on the appeal it has to you

 

I win the coin or lose the coin..I don't need experts to tell me if I paid too much or got a great deal...I paid what I felt it was worth to own it..or it is selling for more than I think it's worth...

 

IT is ONLY MY OPINION but I feel as if us buyers set the market value anyhow..

 

I agree with your opinion wholeheartedly. However, there may be others of the opinion that my opinion of your opinion doesn't mean squat in their opinion.

 

Chris

[Just Bob]

 

 

 

 

Somehow it just doesn't have the same impact when it ends up on the next page

[cpm9ball]

 

 

 

 

Somehow it just doesn't have the same impact when it ends up on the next page

 

That's just one person's opinion.

 

Chris

[coinman1794]

Yikes, I wouldn't consult the bluesheet for that coin! Also, while it's true the bluesheet is the only printed reference for some coins in certain grades, there are any number of auction records and other price guides available on the internet for wholesale pricing that will serve you much better than the bluesheet. If you are faced with no other alternative and you have to use the bluesheet, you should guestimate that it is going to be a lowball quote and figure on adding a little more money to the deal, unless the coins are clearly overgraded, which we all know is what the bluesheet is really for.

[Houston Investor]

About 2 months ago there were a couple of coins I listed on ebay with bluesheet as an opening bid. They did not sell. These were nice coins. I gathered the people were broke. One, for example, was a 1945 50c graded MS 65 by ICG.

 

The discussion in here has been quiet lively and informative on members opinions and how the bluesheet is one of many tools used by buyers and sellers alike - I do not care to enter the debate. I have both bought and sold coins at bluesheet in various situations.

 

 

 

[MarkFeld]

In many cases (particularly after sight- unseen bids have dropped on given coins) I believe that CCDN/bluesheet prices are higher than actual sight-unseen bids

Mark, I think this same idea was expressed earlier, though I haven't seen any examples given. As a matter of fact, I believe it to be true in very infrequent cases. That being said, do you know of any dealer who, when making offers on coins, checks with the greysheet, then checks the bluesheet to accordingly adjust his offer upward?

 

As an aside, it could be an interesting study to compare blue and grey sheet prices.

 

Edited to ask:

 

Mark, do you agree with my title for this thread?

It is extremely important to understand what the "bluesheet" is designed for

James, I have no problem with the thread title, itself. However, I strongly disagree with some of what you included in your post that followed it. For example, even though I am not a bluesheet buyer, I think the "opinion" below would be unfair in countless instances:

 

If someone claiming to be a coin dealer physically looks at your coins, then quotes a sight unseen offer from the bluesheet, you are being scammed. That person is not a legitimate coin dealer, in my opinion.

[James_OldeTowne]

Mark, do you agree with my title for this thread?

It is extremely important to understand what the "bluesheet" is designed for

James, I have no problem with the thread title, itself. However, I strongly disagree with some of what you included in your post that followed it. For example, even though I am not a bluesheet buyer, I think the "opinion" below would be unfair in countless instances:

 

If someone claiming to be a coin dealer physically looks at your coins, then quotes a sight unseen offer from the bluesheet, you are being scammed. That person is not a legitimate coin dealer, in my opinion.

 

Mark, that's why I appreciate your presence on the board. Rather than trying to "prove" that my opinion is wrong, you simply express disagreement, then often illustrate a differing standpoint or opinion with examples or anecdotal evidence. Truly, you are a positive contributor to the value of the NGC forums, and PCGS lost a terrific resource by sending you packing.

 

You are right that my statement is by no means a universal truth, and that agrees with the whole point of my several disclaimers. My belief was (and is) that the emphasis gained by stating it in those terms would have the desired educational effect, and I had hoped that subsequent discussion would lead to alternative points of view, instead of rather personal (perceived) attacks.

 

Thanks for posting here!

[Tradedollarnut]

Interesting. I wonder what the opposing viewpoints might be if I expressed my opinion that the sky is green. Certainly if I stated such an opinion on this chatroom, I'd expect to take some flak... even with disclaimers that it was just my opinion.

 

If you can't take the heat, don't start a separate thread seeking more attention for your opinion...

[James_OldeTowne]

Interesting. I wonder what the opposing viewpoints might be if I expressed my opinion that the sky is green. Certainly if I stated such an opinion on this chatroom, I'd expect to take some flak... even with disclaimers that it was just my opinion.

 

If you can't take the heat, don't start a separate thread seeking more attention for your opinion...

 

Flak? Heat? No problem, let 'em rip.

 

Attacks? I guess those must be a sign of childish insecurity.

 

Maybe if you can't handle opposing opinions, just stay ATS ?

[James_OldeTowne]

I wonder what the opposing viewpoints might be if I expressed my opinion that the sky is green. Certainly if I stated such an opinion on this chatroom, I'd expect to take some flak.

 

Let's see if maybe we can find out here !

 

(I expect you'll get an early opinion in .)

[Tradedollarnut]

Maybe if you can't handle opposing opinions, just stay ATS ?

 

With all due respect, it appears to be YOU that can't handle opposing opinions. I provided multiple real world instances for why your dramatic conclusion was in error and you chose to focus on delivery rather than facts.

 

[Syngraphic]

Has anyone ever taken the time to read the "disclaimers" in each of the coin price guides? Grey Sheet, Blue Sheet, Red Book, Blue Book, Black Book, Coin Trends, Coin Prices, Coins, etc. None of which are remotely close to being accurate. All of which are ONLY price guides, and do not accurately represent what is really going on in the coin market at any given time. Many prices listed are only one of the price contributor's best guesses, and none of these respected price guides neither buy or sell coins. They are simply price INDICATIONS.

 

Unfortunately, too many people take these INDICATIONS far too seriously, and then scream that the collector got screwed because they paid more than some

particular INDICATION was, or slam the dealer because he offered less than some

other particular INDICATION was. The coin market is far too massive and far too complicated for any one person, or any one price guide, to present an accurate and timely price of every coin, every variety, every grade, and every transaction.

 

In reality, those that publically scream and slam have nothing to do with the

numismatic transaction between two agreeing parties and therefore should keep their personal opinions out of other people's business transactions.

 

 

 

 

[Coin]

Maybe what I need is an example of a coin that truly can ONLY be priced by a bluesheet, because I personally am not aware of any such animal.

 

I can't remember the ANA show [baltimore?], but it was about 3-4 years ago. I bought this coin from the auction:

 

 

 

It was graded PCGS MS66. There was no greysheet for MS66 bust dollars. There was no auction history for MS66 bust dollars. There was no pricelist for MS66 Bust dollars. There was a Bluesheet bid... and guess what - the coin sold within 10% of Bluesheet bid. Imagine that...

 

Sorry for the side track or hi-jack.......BUT THAT IS ONE FINE Mamazita of a COIN ! Even with or maybe because of the toned-in print , but still -NICE !

 

 

...uh , sorry ...back to the discussion at hand....

[James_OldeTowne]

Maybe if you can't handle opposing opinions, just stay ATS ?

 

With all due respect, it appears to be YOU that can't handle opposing opinions.Z I provided multiple real world instances for why your dramatic conclusion was in error and you chose to focus on delivery rather than facts.

 

Huh? I just don't understand where you are coming from. YOU chose to focus on a specific delivery - an antagonistic one (in my opinion) FROM YOUR VERY FIRST POST. Far as I can see, I commented on "delivery" not until well into the second page of posts. And, I don't see where I disputed any of the "facts" you provided at all (they were very few in number).