It is extremely important to understand what the "bluesheet" is designed for

[James_OldeTowne]

Disclaimer: the following represents my personal opinion, and is not necessarily accepted as fact by the general coin market.

 

I believe it is critical to understand use of the bluesheet versus the greysheet. Note the following exact quote from http://www.greysheet.com/cdn/blueuse.asp (I have bolded what I consider the particularly significant passages):

 

There are two very important distinctions between the CDN "Greysheet" and the CCDn "Bluesheet". The CDN reports wholesale BID and ASK prices for properly-graded coins ("Raw" or "Certified"), on a sight-seen basis. The CCDn reports wholesale Bid prices for certified coins on a sight-unseen basis. The sight-unseen certified marketplace has been extremely volatile in the past, a function of the now largely-discarded belief that all rare coins could trade sight-unseen (that is, as long as PCGS or NGC said the coin was an MS63, there was no need to examine the coin before purchase; dealers today have demonstrated that they still wish to examine coins before paying their top price - although they may also be willing to make a sight-unseen Bid at a lower level).

 

I will word this as strongly as I can, because I believe in it so strongly. If someone claiming to be a coin dealer physically looks at your coins, then quotes a sight unseen offer from the bluesheet, you are being scammed. That person is not a legitimate coin dealer, in my opinion.

[Tradedollarnut]

I will word this as strongly as I can, because I believe in it so strongly. If someone claiming to be a coin dealer physically looks at your coins, then quotes a sight unseen offer from the bluesheet, you are being scammed. That person is not a legitimate coin dealer, in my opinion.

 

And I will repeat my statement from the other thread: there are certain items in certain grades that only have a bid in the bluesheet. So if a coin dealer looks at your coins and then quotes the bluesheet, he may in fact NOT be scamming you.

 

Also, most coin dealers look at greysheet AND bluesheet to get a feel for sight seen/sight unseen. So if a coin dealer looks at your coins and then quotes the bluesheet, he may in fact NOT be scamming you.

 

Also, I've seen instances where bluesheet is actually higher than greysheet. So if a coin dealer looks at your coins and then quotes the bluesheet, he may in fact NOT be scamming you.

 

Also, bluesheet denotes the different bids between NGC and PCGS, greysheet doesn't. So if a coin dealer looks at your coins and then quotes the bluesheet, he may in fact NOT be scamming you.

 

Also, unfortunately this happens quite a bit, your coin may not meet the standards of sight seen for the grade. So if a coin dealer looks at your coins and then quotes the bluesheet, he may in fact NOT be scamming you.

 

 

Let's face it - he just may not be scamming you at all ... so let's ignore the conclusions drawn in the OP.

 

[Dcoin]

Maybe ‘scammed’ is not the right word. It should raise a whole bunch of red flags that tell you “I can do better than this deal.”

 

Price guide manipulation does not make it a scam, it's just a dealer delving into dishonest and potentially dangerous waters.

[James_OldeTowne]

I will word this as strongly as I can, because I believe in it so strongly. If someone claiming to be a coin dealer physically looks at your coins, then quotes a sight unseen offer from the bluesheet, you are being scammed. That person is not a legitimate coin dealer, in my opinion.

 

And I will repeat my statement from the other thread: there are certain items in certain grades that only have a bid in the bluesheet. So if a coin dealer looks at your coins and then quotes the bluesheet, he may in fact NOT be scamming you.

 

Also, most coin dealers look at greysheet AND bluesheet to get a feel for sight seen/sight unseen. So if a coin dealer looks at your coins and then quotes the bluesheet, he may in fact NOT be scamming you.

 

Also, I've seen instances where bluesheet is actually higher than greysheet. So if a coin dealer looks at your coins and then quotes the bluesheet, he may in fact NOT be scamming you.

 

Also, bluesheet denotes the different bids between NGC and PCGS, greysheet doesn't. So if a coin dealer looks at your coins and then quotes the bluesheet, he may in fact NOT be scamming you.

 

Also, unfortunately this happens quite a bit, your coin may not meet the standards of sight seen for the grade. So if a coin dealer looks at your coins and then quotes the bluesheet, he may in fact NOT be scamming you.

 

 

Let's face it - he just may not be scamming you at all ... so let's ignore the conclusions drawn in the OP.

 

(Capturing quote for future reference.)

[James_OldeTowne]

So if a coin dealer looks at your coins and then quotes the bluesheet, he may in fact NOT be scamming you.

 

Let's face it - he just may not be scamming you at all ... so let's ignore the conclusions drawn in the OP.

 

I can and will state unequivocally that if a person right this second looked at my coins and then quoted the bluesheet, he would unquestionably be scamming me.

 

Of course, I emphasized in the OP that this thread was my personal opinion, so I'm not sure why you think the entirety of my conclusions should be entirely ignored by everyone . If you disagree with my opinion, you could have stated so.

[Tradedollarnut]

James - before we continue in this debate, I agree with you that the bluesheet is designed as a sight unseen pricelist. HOWEVER, I don't believe that you can make such a sweeping conclusion that anyone using it to price a coin sight seen is scamming the seller.

 

I have stood behind Legend's table at many a show and priced coins from the bluesheet dealer to dealer - BECAUSE IT'S THE ONLY PRICEGUIDE AVAILABLE for that type of coin in that grade. Because of that fact, it becomes the default sight seen bid.

 

Your grand conclusion has so many exceptions that it's unwarranted as a conclusion.

[MAULEMALL]

James - before we continue in this debate, I agree with you that the bluesheet is designed as a sight unseen pricelist. HOWEVER, I don't believe that you can make such a sweeping conclusion that anyone using it to price a coin sight seen is scamming the seller.

 

I have stood behind Legend's table at many a show and priced coins from the bluesheet dealer to dealer - BECAUSE IT'S THE ONLY PRICEGUIDE AVAILABLE for that type of coin in that grade. Because of that fact, it becomes the default sight seen bid.

 

Your grand conclusion has so many exceptions that it's unwarranted as a conclusion.

Really??? The dealer knew so little that he accepted a blue sheet offer??

 

[IGWT]

When a dealer who pulls out the Bluesheet to quote a price on a properly graded, sight-seen coin in 65 or lower, I take that to mean (1) he doesn't have a good understanding either of the coin or its retail market; and/or (2) he doesn't have clientele that would be interested in the coin; and, consequently, (3) he wants to minimize his risk and expects to wholesale the coin.

 

This scenario doesn't amount to a scam in my mind.

[Tradedollarnut]

When being offered a coin, you use all available information at hand to price it. Sometimes the only information available is bluesheet. IIRC, in particular this applies to high grade type.

 

So you tell me - assume I'm offering to sell my PCGS MS67 1878-S trade dollar. Where do you go to get pricing information on the coin???

[MAULEMALL]

When being offered a coin, you use all available information at hand to price it. Sometimes the only information available is bluesheet. IIRC, in particular this applies to high grade type.

 

So you tell me - assume I'm offering to sell my PCGS MS67 1878-S trade dollar. Where do you go to get pricing information on the coin???

Where the :censored:do you think.I am heading straight to Laura. (thumbs u

[James_OldeTowne]

James - before we continue in this debate, I agree with you that the bluesheet is designed as a sight unseen pricelist. HOWEVER, I don't believe that you can make such a sweeping conclusion that anyone using it to price a coin sight seen is scamming the seller.

 

I have stood behind Legend's table at many a show and priced coins from the bluesheet dealer to dealer - BECAUSE IT'S THE ONLY PRICEGUIDE AVAILABLE for that type of coin in that grade. Because of that fact, it becomes the default sight seen bid.

 

Your grand conclusion has so many exceptions that it's unwarranted as a conclusion.

 

Wow, Bruce, I'm sorry, but there is so much going on with your post that I had to really take a step back for a minute. Whooosh!

 

You mean to tell me that Legend Numismatics, which has it's finger on the pulse of the high end numismatic market - surely as much, but likely moreso than any other high caliber dealer in the nation - is unable to quote offers on certain coins without a bluesheet? This is no a criticism, but I am floored by this! Frankly, Bruce, I give your company MUCH more credit than that as a premier coin dealership! I have confidence that I could show Legend virtually any high-end coin in existence, and they would be capable of estimating its value virtually on the spot. I mean this totally as a compliment to Legend.

 

OK, but that aside, if I believe someone to be a coin dealer of merit, say a PNG member, and I show and request an offer on my 1916-D Mercury dime in MS-67 FSB, and they quote me an offer from the bluesheet, I positively guarantee you that I will be on the phone with the PNG that very day for quoting me a value fifty thousand dollars below what the coin retails for.

 

I'm sorry, but for those issues that do not appear on the greysheet, the proper way to form a sight-seen offer seems to me to be based on past performance, certainly not on a price guide for sight-unseen wholesale bids.

 

We will simply have to disagree on this issue. My personal opinion is that the bluesheet has a very, very narrow area of usefulness, and it never includes sight-seen numismatic purchases.

 

Maybe what I need is an example of a coin that truly can ONLY be priced by a bluesheet, because I personally am not aware of any such animal.

[Tradedollarnut]

!

 

My point being that there's no greysheet for MS67 trade dollars, no auction records, no nothing - they trade so infrequently. The only information available is PCGS Price Guide and Bluesheet.

 

Would you be any less of a dealer if you quoted me a price after looking at Bluesheet with such little real price information available? I think not.

[James_OldeTowne]

When being offered a coin, you use all available information at hand to price it. Sometimes the only information available is bluesheet. IIRC, in particular this applies to high grade type.

 

So you tell me - assume I'm offering to sell my PCGS MS67 1878-S trade dollar. Where do you go to get pricing information on the coin???

 

Auction and actual sale history. NOT the bluesheet!

[James_OldeTowne]

!

 

My point being that there's no greysheet for MS67 trade dollars, no auction records, no nothing - they trade so infrequently. The only information available is PCGS Price Guide and Bluesheet.

 

Would you be any less of a dealer if you quoted me a price after looking at Bluesheet with such little real price information available? I think not.

 

If there is such little sales activity, and the bluesheet is based on sales activity, how in the heckola can the bluesheet be useful? This makes no sense whatsoever .

[Tradedollarnut]

Auction and actual sale history. NOT the bluesheet!

 

You are at a show. You have your customer waiting to sell you the coin. His toe is tapping. Starting NOW, find me the last PCGS MS67 trade dollar to sell at auction and for how much.

 

[Tradedollarnut]

and the bluesheet is based on sales activity

 

Is it? I thought it was based on bids.

[James_OldeTowne]

Auction and actual sale history. NOT the bluesheet!

 

You are at a show. You have your customer waiting to sell you the coin. His toe is tapping. Starting NOW, find me the last PCGS MS67 trade dollar to sell at auction and for how much.

 

Due diligence would be to inform that customer that research is mandatory for a coin of that caliber, then have the integrity to perform that due diligence. And if he says he wants to know now, then I would inform him that I am incapable of answering his request for a legitimate bid and that he is better served seeking out a more knowledgeable dealer. That is how I would approach this situation, now, and forever in the future. I'm not the slightest bit afraid to admit my ignorance of such a coin to a potential customer.

 

I would not under ANY numismatic circumstances whatsoever whip out a bluesheet. In fact, I do not believe I have ever in ten years quoted an offer from the bluesheet. The only reason I even own one is that it's part of the greysheet downloads I get from time to time.

 

and the bluesheet is based on sales activity

 

Is it? I thought it was based on bids.

 

I'll quote from their own website (my bolds):

 

Also once each month, the Bluesheet reports on the Lowest Asks, Last Trades, or Auction Transactions reported during the previous 4 weeks. These selling prices were previously reported in a separate publication, the CCDn ASKSHEET

[Tradedollarnut]

Maybe what I need is an example of a coin that truly can ONLY be priced by a bluesheet, because I personally am not aware of any such animal.

 

I can't remember the ANA show [baltimore?], but it was about 3-4 years ago. I bought this coin from the auction:

 

 

 

It was graded PCGS MS66. There was no greysheet for MS66 bust dollars. There was no auction history for MS66 bust dollars. There was no pricelist for MS66 Bust dollars. There was a Bluesheet bid... and guess what - the coin sold within 10% of Bluesheet bid. Imagine that...

 

[James_OldeTowne]

Maybe what I need is an example of a coin that truly can ONLY be priced by a bluesheet, because I personally am not aware of any such animal.

 

I can't remember the ANA show [baltimore?], but it was about 3-4 years ago. I bought this coin from the auction:

 

It was graded PCGS MS66. There was no greysheet for MS66 bust dollars. There was no auction history for MS66 bust dollars. There was no pricelist for MS66 Bust dollars. There was a Bluesheet bid... and guess what - the coin sold within 10% of Bluesheet bid. Imagine that...

Nearly six years ago, an 1800 bust dollar in NGC MS-66 sold for $89,125. I found that out within ten seconds of reading your post, and feel certain that additional research would have found additional retail data on which to formulate a personal valuation.

[Dcoin]

With all due respct to the conversation at hand and Bruce's wonderful coin, but isn't the OP's topic about non-wonder coins?

 

Sure there a few examples where the bluesheet is the only valuation, but what about the all other coins?

[Tradedollarnut]

With all due respct to the conversation at hand and Bruce's wonderful coin, but isn't the OP's topic about non-wonder coins?

 

Sure there a few examples where the bluesheet is the only valuation, but what about the all other coins?

 

The OP made a sweeping, all encompassing statement that ANY dealer making a sight seen offer using Bluesheet was ripping the seller off and unworthy of being a dealer.

[Tradedollarnut]

Maybe what I need is an example of a coin that truly can ONLY be priced by a bluesheet, because I personally am not aware of any such animal.

 

I can't remember the ANA show [baltimore?], but it was about 3-4 years ago. I bought this coin from the auction:

 

It was graded PCGS MS66. There was no greysheet for MS66 bust dollars. There was no auction history for MS66 bust dollars. There was no pricelist for MS66 Bust dollars. There was a Bluesheet bid... and guess what - the coin sold within 10% of Bluesheet bid. Imagine that...

Nearly six years ago, an 1800 bust dollar in NGC MS-66 sold for $89,125. I found that out within ten seconds of reading your post, and feel certain that additional research would have found additional retail data on which to formulate a personal valuation.

 

You just ripped your customer off by over $150k. Congrats.

[James_OldeTowne]

The OP made a sweeping, all encompassing statement that ANY dealer making a sight seen offer using Bluesheet was ripping the seller off and unworthy of being a dealer.

Actually, the OP explicitly used the caveat of "MY OPINION" multiple times, ensuring it couldn't be misconstrued as "all encompassing". I don't understand your confusion.

 

Maybe what I need is an example of a coin that truly can ONLY be priced by a bluesheet, because I personally am not aware of any such animal.

 

I can't remember the ANA show [baltimore?], but it was about 3-4 years ago. I bought this coin from the auction:

 

It was graded PCGS MS66. There was no greysheet for MS66 bust dollars. There was no auction history for MS66 bust dollars. There was no pricelist for MS66 Bust dollars. There was a Bluesheet bid... and guess what - the coin sold within 10% of Bluesheet bid. Imagine that...

Nearly six years ago, an 1800 bust dollar in NGC MS-66 sold for $89,125. I found that out within ten seconds of reading your post, and feel certain that additional research would have found additional retail data on which to formulate a personal valuation.

 

You just ripped your customer off by over $150k. Congrats.

 

Remarkable that I could "rip off" a customer just by looking for pricing history. Nowhere did I quote an offer, much less have one accepted, so how did I "rip off" the customer?? Do we just have a different idea of what "rip off" means?

 

You wrote "There was no auction history for MS66 bust dollars", which was a false statement, requiring only ten seconds to disprove.

[Tradedollarnut]

That's ok - you wrote that any dealer quoting a price from Bluesheet sight seen was a rip off artist unworthy of being a coin dealer - which was easy to disprove in less than 10 seconds.

[James_OldeTowne]

That's ok - you wrote that any dealer quoting a price from Bluesheet sight seen

 

Actually, that makes no sense. The bluesheet has no sight-seen prices. They are sight UNseen prices.

 

... was a rip off artist unworthy of being a coin dealer - which was easy to disprove in less than 10 seconds

 

Actually, I wrote that this thread is my opinion.

 

I don't know how you can "prove" or "disprove" how I feel about something.

 

[Tradedollarnut]

! Nice edit! I'll edit mine to state: In my opinion, your opinion is misleading for the reasons I've stated. There, now we can both be right since opinions are never wrong. !

[James_OldeTowne]

If you had just stated that the Bluesheet was for sight unseen quality and left off the rest then we wouldn't even be having this discussion.

... and I wouldn't have been expressing my opinion either, now, would I? But then again, I suggested multiple times in the OP that it IS an opinion. I'm sorry that you are unable to accept that some people's opinions don't match yours.

 

Since I've just found out that your statements of fact must be tempered with common sense, let's do some tempering:

 

The Bluesheet, in general, is for sight unseen quality. However, in some instances, it's become the defacto bid for certain grade levels where there is a lack of other pricing information available.

 

So, why not simply start your own thread expressing your opinion, then?

 

I hardly see that you have "disproven" anything about my opinion in this thread.

 

It just seems to me that the best way to add value to the boards is to open up discussion, rather than attacking other posters' opinions.

 

In my opinion, your opinion is misleading for the reasons I've stated.

 

I appreciate your opinion. You could have approached it that way from the beginning, and helped make this a much more readable thread.

 

PS:Yes, I edited my previous post to keep it civil, and freely admit it to all.

[Tradedollarnut]

OK - my opinion is that your opinion is misleading to those who don't understand completely the mechanics of pricing a coin. Reading your opinion and taking it as fact might lead to a misunderstanding with a perfectly legitimate coin dealer, thus leading to another one of those 300 post threads we all so dearly love to read. There ARE legitimate reasons to quote from the Bluesheet without being a ripoff artist unworthy of being a coin dealer.

 

Perhaps we just avoided that thread.

[James_OldeTowne]

Reading your opinion and taking it as fact might lead to a misunderstanding with a perfectly legitimate coin dealer

OK, but what I don't understand is this: Knowing full well that I stated multiple times in the opening post itself that I am giving an opinion, why did you think readers would somehow interpret my statements as being stated as facts? Did I not do enough to emphasize that I was giving an opinion? Honestly, how many more disclaimers should I have written?

 

Put it another way: how can posters on the boards express their opinions in such a way that you won't be personally offended? Use even more disclaimers??

 

There ARE legitimate reasons to quote from the Bluesheet without being a ripoff artist unworthy of being a coin dealer.

.

Of course there are. When giving a sight-unseen bid on sight-unseen coins, the bluesheet is a legitimate pricing tool.

[Tradedollarnut]

OK, but what I don't understand is this: Knowing full well that I stated multiple times in the opening post itself that I am giving an opinion, why did you think readers would somehow interpret my statements as being stated as facts? Did I not do enough to emphasize that I was giving an opinion? Honestly, how many more disclaimers could I have written?

 

If I stated my OPINION here in a thread that you had ripped me off in a coin deal, wouldn't you use facts and examples to rebut my OPINION in order to set me straight? Just because someone states something and says it's their opinion doesn't mean it's not subject to debate.