Vam help.....ahhhh 911 Chris

[kryptonitecomics]

I Got another Morgan that looks pretty cool under magnification.......cleary a Vam but when I checked out Vamworld.....there really aren't any pictures of 1881-S Vams and I can't locate my Vam book after my recent move.

 

Any guess's as to what Vam this is Chris ole buddy??? Anybody?

 

 

 

 

Any other diagnostic's I should be looking at???

[jesbroken]

check out 1881-S VAM-55 S/S on the following page.

 

VAM-55

[kryptonitecomics]

check out 1881-S VAM-55 S/S on the following page.

 

VAM-55

 

Funny that's what I thought but I didn't get a chance to see other images so I assumed that I couldn't get that lucky as I believe the VAM 55 (R5) is a better one as 1881-S Morgans go.....but it's not a top 100 or anything.......

 

any other thoughts folks???

[physics-fan3.14]

Well, not knowing anything about VAMs at all, that definitely appears to be some sort of S/S action. Of course, you already knew that, but...

[cpm9ball]

It looks like a pig being eaten by an anaconda to me.

 

I believe it is a VAM41:

Obverse - Doubled 8-1 in date. First 8 doubled on surface at lower right outside of upper loop and top inside of lower loop. Second 1 doubled slightly on left side of vertical shaft.

 

Reverse - Mint mark is repunched with original showing as a thin diagonal line at right of upper loop opening and an arc at right of lower loop opening. IV S mint mark set slightly high.

 

Chris

 

PS. By the way, Shane, VAMWorld doesn't have any photos of the VAM41. Hint! Hint!

[CHABSENTIA]

I have been trying to get an answer on Vams. NGC will not label a VAM unless it is one they recognize.What I don't understand is lets say NGC recognizes a certain date with the xyz Vam but doesn't have another date with that same Vam and somebody finds another date with the exact same exact xyz VAM. Do they then recognize that Vam and put it in their database or does it have to be that exact date that is already listed by them?

 

I looked into ANACS as I read on a forum here that they did " cleaned " coins with a " Detail".

 

For five dollars plus the grading fee ANACS will recognize any VAM. For $10,00 plus the grading fee they will research the VAM.

[cpm9ball]

You wouldn't find the same exact VAM on a different date unless the same die was used for it. Take a look at the 1882 O/O VAM7, the 1883 O/O VAM4 and the 1884 O/O VAM6. All three have their own unique characteristics, and all of them are Top 100 VAM's.

 

That being said, any new discovery of a similar VAM for a different year would have to be authenticated, first, but it doesn't guarantee automatic inclusion into the Top 100 list. Leroy Van Allen authenticates VAM's, but Michael Fey and Jeff Oxman are the co-authors of The Top 100 - VAM Keys. Whether or not they would choose to include it as a Top 100 is up to them.

 

Chris

[kryptonitecomics]

It looks like a pig being eaten by an anaconda to me.

 

I believe it is a VAM41:

Obverse - Doubled 8-1 in date. First 8 doubled on surface at lower right outside of upper loop and top inside of lower loop. Second 1 doubled slightly on left side of vertical shaft.

 

Reverse - Mint mark is repunched with original showing as a thin diagonal line at right of upper loop opening and an arc at right of lower loop opening. IV S mint mark set slightly high.

 

Chris

 

PS. By the way, Shane, VAMWorld doesn't have any photos of the VAM41. Hint! Hint!

 

Does that mean I should send them a photo? I don't remember seeing any doubling on the numbers but I will check again tonight! Thanks Chris (thumbs u

[cpm9ball]

It looks like a pig being eaten by an anaconda to me.

 

I believe it is a VAM41:

Obverse - Doubled 8-1 in date. First 8 doubled on surface at lower right outside of upper loop and top inside of lower loop. Second 1 doubled slightly on left side of vertical shaft.

 

Reverse - Mint mark is repunched with original showing as a thin diagonal line at right of upper loop opening and an arc at right of lower loop opening. IV S mint mark set slightly high.

 

Chris

 

PS. By the way, Shane, VAMWorld doesn't have any photos of the VAM41. Hint! Hint!

 

Does that mean I should send them a photo? I don't remember seeing any doubling on the numbers but I will check again tonight! Thanks Chris (thumbs u

 

Why not! Don't they give you credit for the photo? As far as the doubling goes, I think the VAM41 is the only one with a snake eating a pig.

 

Chris

[kryptonitecomics]

It looks like a pig being eaten by an anaconda to me.

 

I believe it is a VAM41:

Obverse - Doubled 8-1 in date. First 8 doubled on surface at lower right outside of upper loop and top inside of lower loop. Second 1 doubled slightly on left side of vertical shaft.

 

Reverse - Mint mark is repunched with original showing as a thin diagonal line at right of upper loop opening and an arc at right of lower loop opening. IV S mint mark set slightly high.

 

Chris

 

PS. By the way, Shane, VAMWorld doesn't have any photos of the VAM41. Hint! Hint!

 

Does that mean I should send them a photo? I don't remember seeing any doubling on the numbers but I will check again tonight! Thanks Chris (thumbs u

 

Why not! Don't they give you credit for the photo? As far as the doubling goes, I think the VAM41 is the only one with a snake eating a pig.

 

Chris

 

Yes well that wouldn't be a common characteristic would it.......

 

lol

[CHABSENTIA]

How about the doubling of the ear which appears on different dates if I am not mistaken etc,. I will go through all the different Vams again on the tpp 50 and one hundred .

 

 

How about the doubling of a date? I understand what you are saying but my understanding is that the Morgans are big for them because of the frequent use and/or bad dies during that time and not the quality control that exists today.

 

 

There are many coins out there both in and out of Holders that are possible Vams.Id I sent in an 1880S that has the VAM 11 designation and I don't pay the Variety Plus fee then I will het it back without the Vam designation.

 

I understand that the 1900 New Orleans have a lot of the same or Similar Vams.

 

Here is the question. I look on the Morgan VAM for the top 50 and 100 and all the Morgans from 1878 to 1921.. I do not find a 1902-0 on the list with any kind of a VAM designation..Does that mean that no 1902-0 has a Vam or just that it is not listed on the NGC Data base or one has not been discovered for that date or one has been discovered but it is not in the top 50/100.

 

I also notice that some have "various".

 

I do know that ANACS will verify a VAM for $5.00 and research it for $10.00.. If I find the same kind of VAM in the VAM Bible but not listed then who authenicates it or how do I find out for sure if there is a VAM for a particular date that might not be listed here.?

 

Thanks in advance

[cpm9ball]

How about the doubling of the ear which appears on different dates if I am not mistaken etc,. I will go through all the different Vams again on the tpp 50 and one hundred .

 

 

How about the doubling of a date? I understand what you are saying but my understanding is that the Morgans are big for them because of the frequent use and/or bad dies during that time and not the quality control that exists today.

 

 

There are many coins out there both in and out of Holders that are possible Vams.Id I sent in an 1880S that has the VAM 11 designation and I don't pay the Variety Plus fee then I will het it back without the Vam designation.

 

I understand that the 1900 New Orleans have a lot of the same or Similar Vams.

 

Here is the question. I look on the Morgan VAM for the top 50 and 100 and all the Morgans from 1878 to 1921.. I do not find a 1902-0 on the list with any kind of a VAM designation..Does that mean that no 1902-0 has a Vam or just that it is not listed on the NGC Data base or one has not been discovered for that date or one has been discovered but it is not in the top 50/100.

 

I also notice that some have "various".

 

I do know that ANACS will verify a VAM for $5.00 and research it for $10.00.. If I find the same kind of VAM in the VAM Bible but not listed then who authenicates it or how do I find out for sure if there is a VAM for a particular date that might not be listed here.?

 

Thanks in advance

 

You're not making any sense. I don't know what point you are trying to make by citing the 1902-O, but there are 52 VAM's listed for it.

 

Just because one particular date/mm with a doubled ear or doubled date is in the Top 100 or Hot 50 doesn't mean that every Morgan with doubling of the same kind should be in either of those lists.

 

If I told you that all Ford cars have black tires, does that mean that all cars with black tires are Fords?

 

If you're that interested in Morgan varieties, then I would suggest that you buy the Van Allen/Mallis book. It is a must. The Fey/Oxman book is great to take to shows because of its compact size, but there are more than 3,000 Morgan varieties. Do you think that most of them should be in the Top 100 or Hot 50?

 

Chris

 

 

[CHABSENTIA]

Here is my problem.

 

1. 1900-0 VAM 5 Micro 0

1902-0 VAM 3 Micro 0

 

2. 1887-0 VAM 5 Stars

1900-0 VAM 15 Stars

 

3. 1889 VAM 16 DDO Ear

1891 VAM 2 DDO Ear.

 

Now these are the same VAMS with different dates.I am not an expert but I suspect that since they are the same VAMS that they have different designations because they refer to different dates.

 

From what I see so far it appears that the same VAMS apply to the same Mints.I don't know that much about paper Money but I do know that during that time that different States produced their own Currency.

 

Somebody had to fabricate the Dies.In just the above examples the "0" mint or New Orleans had the Stars and Micro 0 in different years so this was not intentional and was just the Company fabricating the Dies in that area.Notice that the different Years in the above "P' mint had the DDO ear.

 

This brings me back to my Original question which is if I find a 1903-0 Morgan that has either the VAM with the Star or Micro 0 that is not listed on the NGC registry here then will it be labeled a VAM? I know that the VAM exists so the VAM has been authenicated.

 

Doest his mean that it doesn't show up here on the Registry because NGC has never received that year for grading even though the same VAM exists on other dates? Will they then recognize it and slab it as such because it has been authenicated on other dates?

 

So my

[kryptonitecomics]

CHABSENTIA

 

I have to agree with Chris that it seems you have totally missed the boat on what a VAM is and the concepts behind varieties of die characteristics.

 

A coin with a different date but a similar die characteristic...i.e. doubled ear is not the same VAM as you contioue to state.......that's like saying the 1955 and 1972 Double dies are the same??? They are both Double dies but it doesn't make them the same in any other capacity???

 

This brings me back to my Original question which is if I find a 1903-0 Morgan that has either the VAM with the Star or Micro 0 that is not listed on the NGC registry here then will it be labeled a VAM? I know that the VAM exists so the VAM has been authenicated.

 

The question doesn't matter because if the coin has not been designated as one of the HOT 50 or top 100 Morgan Vam varieites it's not going to be listed on the holder regardless of the fact that it may be a known variety....especially if it's a known diagnostic of a different date and MM combo?

 

From what I see so far it appears that the same VAMS apply to the same Mints.

 

Your losing me here.....if your talking about die varieties being similar for the different mints then I don't know if that is an accurate statement, however....if say a an 1880-S Morgan Dollar reverse die was used to strike coins in 1881 in the same mint....then I could certainly see how the same die characteristics could appear in different years from the same mint.

 

 

I think the biggest mistake you are making is assuming that the VAMS are the same because the description might state S/S, doubled 8 or something like that.....if you were to examine the different coins from different years you would see that they all appear different and the diagnostics are slightly different for each VAM. The amount of Dies used to strike hundreds of millions of Morgan Silver dollars is the biggest contributing factor here.....of course there are going to be tons of different die varieties when you are going through that many dies.

[cpm9ball]

Here is my problem.

 

1. 1900-0 VAM 5 Micro 0

1902-0 VAM 3 Micro 0

I believe that all of the Micro O mintmarks are suspected to be counterfeit, and they are no longer being certified. Someone please correct me if I am wrong.

 

2. 1887-0 VAM 5 Stars

1900-0 VAM 15 Stars

 

3. 1889 VAM 16 DDO Ear

1891 VAM 2 DDO Ear.

 

Now these are the same VAMS with different dates.I am not an expert but I suspect that since they are the same VAMS that they have different designations because they refer to different dates.

They are not the same VAM's. They may have similarities, but they also have distinct and different characteristics.

 

From what I see so far it appears that the same VAMS apply to the same Mints.I don't know that much about paper Money but I do know that during that time that different States produced their own Currency.

You shouldn't try to compare coinage to currency, and no, not all similar VAM's necessarily originated from the same Mint. This is one reason why I suggest that you read the Van Allen/Mallis book.

 

Somebody had to fabricate the Dies.In just the above examples the "0" mint or New Orleans had the Stars and Micro 0 in different years so this was not intentional and was just the Company fabricating the Dies in that area.Notice that the different Years in the above "P' mint had the DDO ear.

The production of the dies was not outsourced to private companies. The dies were routinely produced at the Philadelphia Mint, and then shipped to the Branch Mints where die workers added the appropriate mintmark

 

This brings me back to my Original question which is if I find a 1903-0 Morgan that has either the VAM with the Star or Micro 0 that is not listed on the NGC registry here then will it be labeled a VAM? I know that the VAM exists so the VAM has been authenicated.

As I said before, you're not going to find any of the top TPGS' certifying the Micro O as they are all suspected to be counterfeit, but you are still missing the point. Just because a variety from one date/mm has been authenticated and assigned a VAM# does not mean that it is all-inclusive for every year of the Morgan series. Go back to my analogy of the Ford with black tires. Just because a VAM exists, doesn't mean that it has been authenticated, and just because one VAM has been authenticated, doesn't mean that it applies to every other year with the same mintmark.

 

Doest his mean that it doesn't show up here on the Registry because NGC has never received that year for grading even though the same VAM exists on other dates? Will they then recognize it and slab it as such because it has been authenicated on other dates?

No! This means that NGC will not attribute any VAM for any other date and/or mintmark if it is not specifically included in their list of accepted varieties. Furthermore, just because ANACS will attribute any VAM designation, does not mean that NGC should do the same. They are two separate entities.

 

So my

 

The way I see it, you have a couple of options:

1) If you think NGC should change their policy to expand their list of acceptable VAM's, then you should be corresponding with them to effect a change.

2) If you think that ANACS will attribute and/or research any variety, then you should be submitting to them.

 

By the way, if you do happen to have a 1903 Micro O, why don't you submit it to ANACS and see what happens.

 

Chris

[CHABSENTIA]

I did not mean to imply that the same type of VAMs were produced by the same mint.I mention them because the similar ones came from the same mint inmany cases.The fact that they were shipped from one mint to other branches where the date was added could have still resulted in problems witht the dates.

 

I would also think that the fact that they might not be exact but similar VAMS could emanate from the Master Dies.In the 1800s we did not have the equipment that used Computers that tracked machining within a micro millimeter and produced dies that were exactly alike. I doubt very seriously that all the DIes were exact reproductions within a miilmeter of an inch that was visible to the naked eye.I am also fairly sure that as the manufacturing equipment used to make the dies were used time after time that the precision of the dies were worse to some extent again not visible by the naked eye.

 

I mentioned ANACS because the original poster showed an example of what he felt was a VAM and asked others to comment. I only mention ANACS because I know that NGC only labels Vams that they recognize while ANACS will research a VAM on request for a larger fee.

 

I have asked NGC about this and received a suggestion that when submitting what I think is a similar VAM that is not listed for a certain date that I point out the characteristics of what I feel is a VAM and that if it is not a VAM that NGC will give me a Credit for the Variety Fee.I merely asked the question so that I would not waste any time sending one in this situation.

 

It looks like you answered it in your last paragraph.

 

Lastly I am aware of the story behind the Micro O counterfeiting. I do not have a Morgan with what I feel is the Micro O. I also do not have a 1903-0 that i used in the above example that I think is a Micro O. I beleive that it is the 1901-0 which has received the msot press on the Counterfeit Micro O and not necessarily the 1930-0. I could just as well used the 1902-0 as an example.I do notplan on dending any coins to ANACS at this time.

 

I also asked the question because there are a lot of Sellers on E BAY who are advertising raw coins with not only previous VAMS but newly discovered VAMS and showing greatly magnified photos with a link to VAM World to reference them. For instance one of them is advertising a 1899-0 that does not have the VAM listed on NGC for that date.

 

I also listed the "Stars" VAM for different dates on the New Orleans Mint.While they may not be the exact same : " Star: " VAM I wanted hte clarification because it is the same term.

 

So I guess if in the Future that I do find a VAM that is backed by VamWorld etc and not listed by NGC and I am sure enough and want it researched that I could send it to ANACS and then when NGC recognizes it I can then send it to NGC for a crossover etc.

 

Thanks

[kryptonitecomics]

I agree....NGC and PCGS are just not going to label the vast majority of the more common VAMS so if you want the coin holdered with the appropriate designation.....I would stick with ANACS unless it's a TOP 100 Variety (thumbs u

[cpm9ball]

Shane, did you examine your "Snake & Pig" to see if there is obverse doubling on the date?

 

Chris

[kryptonitecomics]

Not yet Chris but I contacted John ATS and he feels sure this is a VAMs 5, 6, or 10 so I am going to send him a close up picture of the date so he can narrow it down. I will post the same here and see what happens (thumbs u

 

He was kind enough to give me an assessment of my Toned 1884-O....he felt the coin was a VAM 4, but couldn't be sure if it was a 4, 4a, or 4b without seeing the edge reeding.

[cpm9ball]

Not yet Chris but I contacted John ATS and he feels sure this is a VAMs 5, 6, or 10 so I am going to send him a close up picture of the date so he can narrow it down. I will post the same here and see what happens (thumbs u

 

He was kind enough to give me an assessment of my Toned 1884-O....he felt the coin was a VAM 4, but couldn't be sure if it was a 4, 4a, or 4b without seeing the edge reeding.

 

I considered the VAM5, too, but yours doesn't appear to be tilted to the left as it is described. If you're sending your friend photos, be sure to zoom out a little on at least one of the mintmark to make it easier to determine its relative position. Also, if it is a VAM5, there should be an obverse spike in the upper loop of the first "8".

[kryptonitecomics]

I'll let you know and post pics here......the John I am referring too should be familiar too you as I believe he is the Vice President of the SSDC (thumbs u

[CHABSENTIA]

Thanks for the input/s. My questions were the result of two things.

 

1.There are a large number of Sellers on E bay who are selling both raw coins and slabbed coins as VAMS.Some of them are in NGC holders and some are in PCGS holders. I do know that NGC will not label a VAM if the submitter does not pay the Variet fee so the situationcan exist.The problem on E bay is further confused when they refer to certain Vams that are not on the Hot 50 and 100 top Vams of NGC but are on other slabs.

2. The second arose when I asked NGC nad perhaps they didn't understand the question but I was told to indicate the type of Vam that I thought existed when I submitted the Coin.

 

I can look all day in VAM world and read all the books but if NGC does not authenicate the coins then it does me no good.I am not buying a coin because it has a Vam. I am buying the coin,however, if it has a VAM then I think it shoild be recognized so I wanted clarification which I now possess.I t would do me no good to send a Morgan for the gradinf fee of $23.00 ( $16.00 + $7.00) even if I get Credit for the $7.00 and then send it to say ANACS and pay another grading fee plus $5.00 or $10.00 more for any VAM.

 

I do know that there was not the quality control used in the late 1800s that exists now and there are mistakes now but they are errors.The dies were also used more often before replacing..Since gthe pressing of Metal cause s friction then there is going to be wear and tear on the dies over time. Today there are also Computer aided equipment that can get any Machine or process within micro inches of stats.I would imagine that even though the Dies were Fabricated and then sent to other branches that they were not all in the same exact tolerance as there was no way to get it in the standards available today.I do not know the answer but was there a certain number of times that a die could be used at all branches or was that up to each Branch?If it was left up to each Branch then some could have been worsr than others if used too much.

 

This is something to be looked at later. Meanwhile I am just starting on my Morgans and I have several Raw ones that i bought years ago and just wanted to calrify the situation with NGC and on EBay.

 

Thnks to Chris and others I understand the situation enough to make a decision.

[cpm9ball]

The problem on E bay is further confused when they refer to certain Vams that are not on the Hot 50 and 100 top Vams of NGC but are on other slabs.

 

The problem with grading companies other than the top TPGS' is not whether they have the variety correctly attributed, but in most cases, they overgrade their coins and do not offer any warranty.

 

 

I am not buying a coin because it has a Vam. I am buying the coin.................

 

And there is nothing wrong with that, but you have to realize that there are more than 3,000 Morgan varieties out there and you will certainly come across a fair number of them. Not too long ago, I purchased an 1884-O in a PCGS MS64DMPL holder that the dealer apparently didn't take time to examine. It was an O/O Top 100 that PCGS failed to attribute. This isn't just an isolated case either. It happens all the time. I paid a little less than 64DMPL Bid for it, but it is worth twice that. That is why it is good to learn about them so you can cherrypick those that command a premium.

 

Meanwhile I am just starting on my Morgans and I have several Raw ones that i bought years ago......................

 

I noted that you live in Florida. Have you ever attended FUN, Clearwater or the Palm Beach Shows? FUN is coming up in Orlando in January, and if you want to see literally thousands and thousands of Morgans, that is the place to be. Like I said, you will see your fair share of unattributed VAM's there, both raw and slabbed, and it might be a good idea to buy a copy of the Fey/Oxman booklet "The Top 100 Morgan Dollar Varieties: The VAM Keys". It's only a 4"x6" spiralbound, so it is easy to carry around. Believe me, it will pay for itself with your first cherrypick.

 

Thnks to Chris and others I understand the situation enough to make a decision.

 

I'm glad I could help, although I wasn't quite sure what point you were trying to make at first.

 

Chris

[CHABSENTIA]

I mentioned earlier that there is one dealer that seems to be just about exclusively involved in VAMS. I asked him about is guarantee as it is going to take about three weeks to send them to NGC and then what happens if they refuse to grade it etc.

 

He replied that his website spelled it out and not only did I have only seven days to return it but if it was taken out of the Mylar holder then it was mine.

 

The guy not only talks about older VAMS but those that are recently discovered.Some of the already discovered VAMS are listed on NGC on some dates but not others.You are correct about the discoveries.THere are some people that just look at the slab and if it is NGC or PCGS and not attributed then they just assume that it is n ot a VAM or PCGS and NCGS would not attribute it.

 

I made a mistake when I bought the 20th Aniversary A.S.E from the U.S.Mint for $109.00 and didn't belong to NGC .I opened the Box just to look at them and put it away and then found out I couldn't get the black label because I opened t it up.A few months ago I sent in the Reverse Proof and it came back as a PF70. I went ahead and got on EBAY the black label regular Proof in PF 70 for about $70.00 and didn't want to spend the Money for a black label MS70 as I already had one in the brown label as MS70 so just picked up a black label in MS 69 to comlete the Set.

 

Now I am going to dot all the " Is" For example I have several 1921 D Morgans that are nice. I see that a VAM for them is the "capped R " so I am learning the different types and specifcations and checking them all.

 

I see that there are many many more Vams being offerd on EBAY both already slabbed with/without and raw coins so I needed the info.

 

Meanwhile I first check the value of the Coin.If I am looking at an MS65 then I look at the value for that MS65.If it has a VAM then so much the better but I don't pay extra because I think it has a VAM.

 

Thanks again for yout help.