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Another phony 1807 Bust Half is back on eBay

Started by edmerlr,

17 posts in this topic

edmerlr

edmerlr

Posted
Posted

Another phony 1807 Bust Half is back on eBay.

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/1807-HALF-DOLLAR_W0QQitemZ120174854535QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item120174854535

 

This seller raises a red flag for us by volunteering in his description that he has shown the coin to a dealer and to his knowledge the coin is genuine.

 

In my way of thinking, a truly "innocent" seller would believe his coin is genuine from the get-go and therefore the subject of "genuine or not" would not even come up.

 

Bottom LIne: Check every 1807 you see on eBay. This seems to be the most popular date for the counterfeiters

 

Regards,

 

Ed R.

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CHABSENTIA

CHABSENTIA

Posted
Posted

I read an article here the other day. It was mentioned in the VAM link that talked about a counterfeit Morgan Vam that recently came to light.PCGS discovered it and had actually been authenicating it.They got suspicious only because all of a sudden there was an unusually high number of the same Vam errors at one time for the same coin submitted at once. Apparently there had just been one every once in a while before this time.

 

I believe it was the 1901 0 Morgan and had to do with the micro 0 and a few others..Apparently they had been counterfeited several decades ago

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P. J.

P. J.

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Hi,

 

I'm interested in learning more about spotting a counterfit bust half. Could you explain what is wrong with this particular coin?

 

Phil

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edmerlr

edmerlr

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This specific 1807 Bogie is a double-cast counterfeit.

 

It has shown up on eBay several times this year.

 

I don't believe there is just one of them. They must have come in to the USA by the box full from some Third World country.

 

This Bogie is easy to spot. The person who made it used an 1807 obverse and combined it with an 1809 reverse.

 

I can spot them by just glancing at the coin's reverse. On the real 1807's - there are 4 different die marriages - the tip of the olive branch over the C or 50 C is either between the 0 of 50 and the C of 50 C or it is over the left edge of the stand of the C.

 

On this counterfeit the tip of the olive branch goes over the C, almost all the way to the upper serif on the right of the C.

*********************

There other differences between a real 1807's reverse and the 1807 Bogie's reverse (that is, the 1809 reverse used on the Bogie). But they are more subtle.

 

The 1807's were design Type 1 of the Bust Halves. In 1809 the Bust Halves were changed in an attempt to get better metal flow between the dies. The 1809 thru 1811 are design Type 2.

 

The real 1809's reverse - used on this 1807 Bogie - has a total of 11 differences made on reverse - most of them made on the master die - between it and a real 1807's reverse. This has nothing to do with the olive branch tip and the C that I mentioned above. I mention the olive branch tip and the C relationship because this is the most obvious "Red Flag."

 

For all of the differences refer to Edgar Souders' book Bust Half Fever, Second Edition, pages 110 & 111.

 

I hope this helps a little.

 

Regards,

 

Ed. R.

 

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Mozin

Mozin

Posted
Posted

I emailed coinlady1969, the seller of this latest fraudulent item. If the listing does not get canceled, some of us need to contact ebay about it.

 

Simply looking at the eagle should convince anyone that this is not a coin from 1807..

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edmerlr

edmerlr

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PerryHall...

 

...the explanation of "double-cast" came from Edgar Souders.

 

It is something to do with combining a casting of a real 1807's obverse with a casting of a real 1809's reverse.

 

I saved the complete explanation and will type it as soon as I find it.

 

I usually save information on things like this. I put the information somewhere where I won't lose it. I just have to remember where that is.

 

I'll get back to you later.

 

Ed R.

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Clutch Cargo-migration

Clutch Cargo-migration

Posted
Posted
This specific 1807 Bogie is a double-cast counterfeit...

 

I can spot them by just glancing at the coin's reverse. On the real 1807's - there are 4 different die marriages - the tip of the olive branch over the C or 50 C is either between the 0 of 50 and the C of 50 C or it is over the left edge of the stand of the C.

 

On this counterfeit the tip of the olive branch goes over the C, almost all the way to the upper serif on the right of the C.

 

After reading your post about the olive branch ending over the 'C', I was looking at a bust half on Alpine, and noticed the olive branch also ended over the 'C.'

 

Does this look like its authentic. here's the link.

 

http://www.alpinenumismatics.com/detail.cfm?coin_detail_id=28403

 

appreciate any input. thanks.

 

 

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edmerlr

edmerlr

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Clutch Cargo...

 

...the coin at Alpine Numismatics is authentic. You referred me to Alpine's 1809 O-115 Bust Half.

 

My discussion about the tip of the olive branch over the C of 50 C. specifically dealt with the 1807 Bust Halves.

 

My comments about this relationship does not apply - as a broad generalization - to the other Lettered Edge Bust Halves dated 1808 to 1836.

 

There are 450 different die marriages in the Bust Halves from 1807 to 1836. Because the 1807's only have 4 of these die marriages, it is easy to come up with quick identifiers on the 1807's (like the tip of the olive branch to the C) that would weed out the Bogus coins.

 

Regards,

 

Ed R.

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Clutch Cargo-migration

Clutch Cargo-migration

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Ever since I read your comment about the olive branch not ending over the "C" -- I've been checking out bust halfs.

 

Does this ANACS coin on eBay look authentic?

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/1812-Capped-Bust-Half-Dollar-ANACS-certified-Ex-Fine-40_W0QQitemZ120175762997QQihZ002QQcategoryZ11969QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

 

 

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EZ_E

EZ_E

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I emailed coinlady1969, the seller of this latest fraudulent item. If the listing does not get canceled, some of us need to contact ebay about it.

 

Simply looking at the eagle should convince anyone that this is not a coin from 1807..

 

It's still there as of 0700 Sunday morning...

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