Grading Services: Which One is Best and Why????

[mlovest]

Folks,

 

I'm sure this comes up all the time, but what are the pros and cons of the various grading serivices? Are the prices very different? Anything to watch out for?

 

Thanks!

Mike

[TomB]

This can be a loaded question.

[mlovest]

Load away!

[nwcs]

What to watch out for? This is an easier question. Keep watchful of coins in slabs by: ACG, NTC, PCI, and TruGrade. This is my opinion only. Cash value is 1/20th of a cent.

 

Neil

[BillJones]

NGC and PCSG lead the pack with ANACS in third place IMO. None of them could be called "the best" because none of them are perfect.

 

If you want to talk about customer service NGC is better than PCGS.

[Dermott]

Heh, if that's a loaded question, can I give a loaded answer?

[airplanenut]

If you want to talk about customer service NGC is better than PCGS.

That's not fair... mathematically, that would be NGC/PCGS=customer service "betterness"... as I've heard, you can't divide by zero...

[Oldtrader3]

Do a search on PCGS and NGC on this site. You wil learn alot.

[mlovest]

Good idea, I'll do that!

[TomB]

 

That was pretty funny, Jeremy!

[LucyBop]

I'll echo a few of the comments already made...

NGC and PCGs are the clear leaders... period......

 

as to which one is the best, the answer for me lies in what I am trying to slab or accomplish.....

 

I find that PCGs holdered coins have a higher resale value in the series I specialize in, so for resale purposes PCGs works for me here..... However,

 

If I have some darker yet nice lovely mint set toned coins NGC seems to grade these more accurately and won't deduct a point... Also, when it comes to toned Proofs, NGC loves them.... Come to think of it, all toned coins display better in their holder...

 

I don't think you can go wrong with either of the top two...

 

Both require a 'certian look' for their top grades.... One has to learn what that is for a given series and submit that way.......

 

With that said, I have many Commem Silver Legal tender coins from Israel that I would like to get slabb'd.........

 

When it comes to foriegns, I wouldn't know who to turn to or if they would even bother to slab these:

 

 

any advice fellas on who may grade my Biblical art coins?

[jom]

Depends on what you consider best.

 

Best Customer Service: Clearly NGC

 

Best Resale Price: Most premuim quality coins end up in PCGS holders because that slab brings more money, all else being equal. What happens is that if an NGC coin is premium for the grade it will get cracked eventually. Therefore, the coins that end up staying in NGC holders aren't the premium coins. So as you see more and more of these coins you get the perception that NGC coins aren't as nice. Remember though NGC (nor PCGS) actually MAKE coins nor do they choose what coins are sent to them. IMO, then, this is NOT a reflection of NGC's ability to grade...

 

Most Conservative Grading: It is the market perception that PCGS is more conservative. HENCE, the premium prices. But, again, this is still not a reflection of NGC's ability to grade.

 

Most Consistant Grading: IMO, NGC is more consistant and they have been for years. To me, you always knew what you were going to get with NGC. PCGS, on the other hand, was a crapshoot. This IS a reflection of their ability to grade because CONSISTANCY is what is really important.

 

Best Slab: I like NGC's since it doesn't scratch as easily AND they always seem to put the coin in straight. PCGS on the other hand is sloppy and their slabs scratch very easily. The only problem I have with NGC's slab is that the white plastic causes me headaches when I try to photo my coins.

 

So who's "best"? Hell if I know.... But YOUR best bet is to learn to grade YOURSELF. Start with one series you like and go from there...

 

jom

[Tradedollarnut]

Very excellent post, Jom!

 

I might add my own opinions as to advantages and disadvantages to each:

 

One PCGS advantage is the thinness of the plastic holder and the ability to let more "flash" thru. NGC's plastic is thicker and I think so is the insert. The coin is further from the surface and the luster of the coin must travel thru more plastic, which [iMO] diminishes the flash of the coin. Also, for a while there NGC seemed to have a bad batch of plastic that contained "microbubbles" which severely impacted the ability to view the coin optimally. However, certain coins absolutely do look better in the NGC holder because the insert sets off the look of the coin better.

 

NGC does seem to grade more consistently, albeit to a slightly different standard. This standard seems to be aligned closer to many price guide's standards as NGC coins seem to sell at market level more often [PCGS coins often sell for a large premium due to perceived undergrading]. This is not necessarily true with moderns, however. But I don't collect those so it doesn't impact me and I don't pay much attention to it.

 

PCGS tends to reward a certain "look" that doesn't always align with NGC's grading pattern. One concern of mine is that even tho NGC's grading may be consistent, they have an association with NCS that results in [iMO] substandard coins being on the market. Again, this is my opinion only, but I have seen totally washed out dipped coins that have no business being in a certain holder come on the marketplace as the result of NCS conservation with the grade guaranty. In my opinion, this counteracts much of the good of NGC's tighter grading pattern.

[LucyBop]

The coin is further from the surface and the luster of the coin must travel thru more plastic, which [iMO] diminishes the flash of the coin.

 

I have noticed that these holders tend to not display mirror depth in Ultra Cameo Frankies...... I cracked a few slabs that I wanted in PCGs holders for my Reg set, and upon cracking them it was obvious that the NGC holder can hide the depth of the mirrors alittle.

[MikeKing]

But if NGC has stricter grading standard for FBL in Franklins, why would PCGS FBL's go for a higher price?

 

[nwcs]

Market perception. The superior product doesn't always lead sales. But I'm sure that the market has a very slow reaction time. I wonder what things will be like in about 3 years when the market starts becoming more aware of what the various slabbers are doing today.

[291fifth]

As has been said before, PCGS seems to be the more market acceptable at the moment. In some areas, such as pre-1934 copper, PCGS generally seems to have stricter standards. While I like to say "buy the coin and not the holder" that may not always have been the best move when it comes time to sell. I just read a Long Beach show report from across the street. The writer seemed to indicate that the dealer buyers were sticking very strictly to their "sheets" when making offers. If PCGS coins have higher sheet values then they will get higher offers.

 

If I recall, back about the time NGC started up and for about two years after, NGC coins were more market acceptable than PCGS. Things can change.

[LucyBop]

But if NGC has stricter grading standard for FBL in Franklins, why would PCGS FBL's go for a higher price?

 

Good question, probably because people think PCGs is stricter on the overall grade... I'm finding this not the case, and I'm taking advantage of some nice NGC bargains....

 

and I might add, Rick T of R&I Coins is asking 32k on a ms66fbl 1961 Franklin...

[sanmary]

Market perception......Is McDonald's the best quality food, best service, and best value vs every other fast food chain....NO! Is McDonald's #1....YES!! Market perception can be very mis-leading.

[DonHeath]

Mike,

 

All the above advice is well thought out. In my humble opinion, you have to transcend the holder and learn to grade to your own tastes.

 

If you are submitting your own coins, hypothetically you might own a coin that is in your opinion a solid MS-63 with original surfaces and great luster. Maybe it has a splash of color. Supose you submitted it to brand X, and they graded it AU-58. Then suppose you cracked it out of the holder and submitted it to brand Y, and they graded it MS-64. Supposing the two companies holders sold at different premiums. Generalizations simply don't work very well. Most of the time, holdered coins have migrated to their highest priced holder (whichever that is). If you can see past the holder, you'll recognize which ones have become the victim of the Peter Principle, and which ones the submitter didn't know should be reholdered. That is why so frequently you'll be advised to buy the coin, and not the holder. As for which holder will fetch the biggest return in 10 years, who knows. What I do know is that PQ coins can be easily reholdered in 10 years to the plastic that fetches the most if you are so inclined. I see most of the holder discussions as academic, and related more to selling than collecting. I don't care if it's holdered in Saran wrap if I like the coin. I submit primarily to NGC, because I love their service, but if I'm selling a coin that'll benefit from a PCGS holder, I'll cross it before I sell it. Hey, the holder is only a few dollars. Sorry for the rant.

[jom]

What TDN and nwcs said!

 

I'm now going to throw in some "specifics" regarding series I know a little more about: When it comes to $5 Indians, it is clear to me at this point that the better coins are almost always in the PCGS slab. Again, this doesn't necessarily mean that's the case in all series but I believe it certainly is in the series I collect and probably that way in the overall market.

 

Let's put it this way, if I go to a dealers table or I'm sitting down at the auction lot viewing and I'll see a slab that has the date and mintmarkd I'm looking for. Based on what holder it's in I'll know almost immediately (based on much previous experience) that if it's an NGC graded coin the chances of me liking the coin is almost nill. This is definately the case when it comes to $5 Indians in lower Unc to high end AU. I think there was a glut of coins (proabably from Europe) that were sent through NGC at some point and most are what I call "junk unc" coins. Dull, lifeless etc etc. In the mean time the choice pieces were probably either first sent to PCGS or cracked out and sent to PCGS. Either way, it gives the impression that NGC is crappy. That is certainly NOT the case but the fact is PCGS coins get the premium. Now if I were to find an NGC coin that is nice and I needed it I would NOT hesitate to buy it and I'd probably get a good deal. That's becuase I don't give a damn what holder it's in but that is not what the majority of the market thinks. When it comes to $5 Indian gold in less than 64 grade down the premiums coins are at PCGS. That's just my observation....

 

jom

[James_OldeTowne]

Shouldn't the grades of encapsulated coins be a mere guide? Is any one service really the "Best", when in fact your own opinion of the coin should be of most importance?

 

Despite the problems I've had with encapsulated coins, I really see very little difference between ANACS, ICG, PCGS and NGC, in that the grading from any of them seems more or less on par. Sure, you're going to find bad examples in any slab, but it seems like a pointless question from the standpoint of collecting coins. For me, what's "best" and "why" only applies to coins, not grading services.

[dakra]

I find that PCGs holdered coins have a higher resale value in the series I specialize in, so for resale purposes PCGs works for me here..... However,

 

Just to expand on a few thoughts I have...

I had horrible experiences with PCGS but have not graded through NGC yet (Will send in a submission or two in the next few months) so at this point, the grass is greener for me on the NGC side.

 

As for Marketing. From what I understand, PCGS is getting a higher resale value but that is in this current market. PCGS has been getting a good deal of flack about their customer service and I have a feeling in the future, NGC is going to close that gap on marketability.

 

The only other issue I have with PCGS is... They are a third party grading service but also sell PCGS graded coins through their own subdivisions. Sorry to say, I see an issue with being "third party" and at the same time, selling your own slabs.

 

-Dave

[reid1836]

I would have to agree with the consensus that NGC and PCGS rank in the top two positions and that ANACS ranks relatively third. In my opinion, NGC has the most consistent grading when compared to the A.N.A.`s grading standards. PCGS has a tendency to market grade. Which is to say that sometimes the grades given to a coin do not correspond to the technical merits set forth by the A.N.A to reach that particular grade level. Example: An 1872 two cent piece graded as F-12 yet shows no signs of the WE in the motto. This would be considered a market graded coin. I would suggest avoiding such coins. This would follow some good advice. { Buy the coin not the holder ! }

I would have to disagree on the point about NTC. As far as circulated coins go.

I have purchased several coins in the past that have been graded by them and found them to adhere very well to the A.N.A.`s grading standards. But I can only speak of personal experiences and opinions.

[nwcs]

A small note on the ANA standards. For uncirculated grades, the standard is about as useless as suntan lotion in a hurricane.

[1jester]

Dakra, excellent point about the obvious conflict of interest PCGS has by both selling and grading coins.

[Tradedollarnut]

PCGS doesn't sell coins. Let's at least set forth the facts properly. PCGS is a wholly owned subsidiary of Collectors Universe which also owns several retailers of coins.

 

How is this any different than if coin dealers own large amounts of stock in, say, SEGS for example?

[dakra]

PCGS doesn't sell coins. Let's at least set forth the facts properly. PCGS is a wholly owned subsidiary of Collectors Universe which also owns several retailers of coins.How is this any different than if coin dealers own large amounts of stock in, say, SEGS for example?

 

Bwaa Haa haa.

Who is David Hall? What Slabs does he sell? Is he an officer of CU? Founder/President of PCGS? Often sells pop tops... hmm

 

Need more examples of possible conflicts of interest?

 

-Dave

 

 

 

 

 

[jom]

How is this any different than if coin dealers own large amounts of stock in, say, SEGS for example?

 

It isn't any different but PCGS is the market leader, no? It's part of a public company, no?

 

I've always felt the PCGS situation is the closest thing to insider trading we have in the coin market. To me, at the very least, DH selling coins at all leaves a very bad perception. Frankly, if this were the STOCK market it would be heavily investigated.....

 

jom

[Tradedollarnut]

Bwa ha ha?

 

I'm not saying it's not a potential conflict of interest. But at least describe the conflict correctly. PCGS doesn't sell coins, they grade them. DHRC and B&M sell coins. And most other grading companies have the same potential conflict of interest. Before pointing fingers, perhaps one should know enough to decide where to point them?