Why would you crack out your Bust Halves?

[edmerlr]

This posting is inspired by “James EarlyUS,” so if I end up typing too much, please blame James and not me.

 

James stated recently to CoinAddict in a forum response (the coin series that he speaks about is the Capped Bust Halves and CoinAddict's new 1812/1):

 

”Incidentally, I hope you will consider liberating this piece from its tomb. It is a noble coin that deserves to be free from the encumbrance of a slab (you can't see the lettered edge). If mine, I would crack it out immediately.”

 

I understand why one would NOT want to crack out a modern coin. If you had a Kennedy Half MS-69, why would you crack it out? The slab proves that it is, or was thought to be, a MS-69 and not a MS-67 or 68.

 

But I am talking now of Lettered Edge Capped Bust Halves. Normally these coins in our collections are in the lowly grades of VF, EF, or AU.

 

Why do we like to break them out? What do we gain? What does looking at the edge lettering tell us?

*****************

 

I collect the LECBH by die state. I cannot tell you the number of these coins over the years that I have cracked out of PCGS or NGC holders.

 

Raw is and was the way I liked them. …but now that I am older I am starting to look at my coins not only as a collector, but as a capital investment. My coins are a large part of my retirement savings. Now – to maximize my return – I KNOW that as I slowly disperse my collection over the next 2 or 5 or 7 years, I must deal with the TPGS’s. Why on Earth would I sell a coin for $300 in its raw state, when I could get it slabbed for $30 cost and then sell it for $400 to $500? …and, of course, the obvious question, why did I break them out in the first place?

 

I am not going to ever regret that I cracked them out. Why? Because of the hours of enjoyment my raw coins gave me. Now, perhaps the question should be – strictly looking at the economics – was it worth it?

 

As a collector I like to be able to touch my coins and check out the edge lettering. Looking for die cracks or lapping is always easier on my eyes with a raw coin than it is a slabbed coin. Storing raw coins is so much easier than trying to find a safe or safe deposit box for a few hundred slabbed coins. Displaying raw coins is so much easier than slabbed coins. ...but "easier" is not a reason, it is an excuse.

 

Most people will list the ability to see the edge lettering as one of the primary reasons for breaking out the coins. Hey, I get this.

 

I remember when I first started buying raw Busties for my new Bust Half collection. It was a thrill to find a coin that said on the edge “OALF A DOLLAR," instead of the “OR HALF A DOLLAR” that should have been there. I would dutifully look up this error in the back of the Overton book and write down Overton’s edge lettering code of E-10 or E-12, or whatever applied. The thrill of this hunt was perpetuated when I would read the remarks of eBay sellers: “Rare Edge lettering error” or “Sought after lettering error,” they would boldly announce.

 

Imagine the disappointment when I discovered – with two exceptions – that edge lettering errors do NOT command a premium. (The exceptions are [1] completely plain edge coins that should have lettering and [2] the 1818 O-108 Pincher 8 with its inverted edge lettering)

 

Dr. Ivan Leaman and Don Gunnet 30 years ago started a project that involved looking at the LECBH’s edges. In a time frame of 10 years they looked at approximately 10,000 coins. They were able to, by studying the edge lettering die usage and die wear, determine the emission order of the LECBH (it is felt that this was done with 100% accuracy). I don’t believe they could have accomplished this today - what with so many coins in slabs.

 

OK. If all but two edge lettering errors have no premium value and if the emission order has already been determined, what do we have to gain by looking at the coins’ lettering? Is it THAT important to crack them out?

 

My answer: "A lot," from a collecting point of view. Let me explain with an example of some of my research this week:

 

Subject coin and die marriages: 1809 O-102, O-108, and O-111. These are important die marriages in the 1809 Bustie series. They are not rare. They are the die marriages where the types of edges were changed in mid-strike.

 

Early in 1809 the O-111 die marriage was struck. The Early Die State (O-111) has the Plain Edge. The Late Die State (O-111a) has the IIII Edge.

 

About mid year 1809 the O-108 die marriage was struck. The EDS (O-108) has the IIII Edge. The LDS (O-108a) has the XXX Edge.

 

Towards the end of 1809 the O-102 die marriage was struck. The EDS (O-102) has the XXX Edge. The LDS (O-102a) has the Plain Edge.

 

What a clear cut dividing line between the different die states of these coins and the use of the experimental edges. How was this done?

 

Knowing this you would think that when the Mint stopped striking the O-108 with the IIII Edge, Henry Voigt (the Coiner in 1809) announced to the two men on the screw press something like the following: “Ok Guys. We just finished the O-108. Throw away those unused IIII Edge planchets. Now it’s time to change to the XXX Edge planchets so we can start striking the O-108a.”

 

You thought this? Wrong. Henry Voigt wouldn’t have known an Overton Number from an overdrive on a 1955 Packard. (Duh. Overton wasn’t born yet and the internal combustion engine hadn’t been invented.)

 

Fortunately I have two examples of the O-108 die marriage in my collection. One of them is an Intermediate Die state. Also, I have three examples of the O-102 – two of them are IDS coins.

 

By studying these 5 RAW coins in my collection (using obverse, reverse, AND the edge) I could determine (1) that the Mint changed the edge type during the striking of the O-108 die state and NOT the O-108a die state; and (2) that the Mint changed the edge type during the striking of the O-102 die marriage AFTER the obverse die cracked and BEFORE the reverse die cracked.

 

I could NOT have determined any of this with a slabbed coin.

 

What is the value of my discovery in regards to the Real World? No value at all.

 

Does my discovery add value to the coins involved? No, not at all.

 

What is the worth of this discovery to me – as a die state collector? Priceless.

 

Repeating a question I asked above regarding breaking out your Busties: “…the question should be – strictly looking at the economics – was it worth it?”

 

My answer: “Probably not. …especially if I look at my bank account (in the future) AFTER all of my coins have been sold off.”

 

…but was the enjoyment I had and the knowledge I gained worth the cost of breaking out the coins? I can only answer with an illogical, immeasurable “Yes.”

 

************

Your turn to talk now.

 

Why would you break out your Busties?

 

 

 

[EZ_E]

I cracked many high grade 19th century proofs when I was collecting types in my dansco album. I enjoyed having the coins there at my finger tips to enjoy as a whole. But, would I do it again? NO! Although all coins were solid for their grades, the TPGS standards vary and I have received some back at a point less. This can add up to lots of $$$ on many of my coins. So, I thoroughly regret doing what I did. I knew the risks at the time and was counselled not to do it but a collector collects to his/her tastes. But retrospect can sure be a bugger at times.

[123cents]

I love collecting busties but I am 58 years old and know that in the next 7 to 10 years (maybe sooner. Ha! Ha!) I will have to liquidate my collection. That is why I only collect slabbed CBH's and if I do buy a raw coin I immediately have it slabbed. I see nothing wrong with buying graded CBH's and cracking them out but for me it does not make economic sense.

[okbustchaser]

Why do we like to break them out?

 

I am probably in the minority on a TPG sponsored board, but I DO NOT LIKE slabs. I not only can't examine the edges, I can't see the obverse and reverse as well as a raw coin. Looking at and studying the coins in my collection are the major reasons I collect.

 

Monetary loss from cracking them is simply irrelevant to me. I spent entertainment dollars to buy them. That money (as far as I am concerned) is just as gone as if I had spent it in Vegas. They will not be for sale as long as I am around. As for what my adult children will get for them after my death...I don't care!!! I didn't collect the coins for their benefit.

[James_OldeTowne]

I will give my top reasons as they apply to me and the majority of collectors of this series that I know personally. Please let me preface that saying that the following do not generally or necessarily apply to "condition rarities" - that is, coins that derive much of their value from the high grade on the slab. However, much of what I will state applies to other early coinage as well. Let me also state that I respect the desire of other collectors to have these coins slabbed, but it is just not for me.

 

1. Like all coins, a bust half has three sides. But unlike most coins, the third side of a bust half (the edge) has details that deserve to be seen and appreciated. The lettered edge is such an important an integral part of these coins, and it is a shame how many collectors have no idea what the edges look like because they have only bought the coins in slabs.

 

The issue isn't whether the third side matters to the grade or value or not. It's just simply that it's the third side of the coin, and the subtle reasons it is there is such a part of the history of our country's early coinage. The lettering is there so that folks wouldn't illicitly shave off the edge of the coins and accumulate the silver shavings for later resale! That's COOL! That is why I want to see the edge. It has nothing to do with rare edge varieties, or whatever.

 

2. Any slab inhibits the ability to view the obverse and reverse of a coin, and for bust halves, this is particularly important due to the necessity of being able to view fine details and to scrutnize the surfaces carefully. I do not trust TPGs to do this for me. I just really hate trying to examine a bust half through the encumbrance of plastic.

 

3. TPGs grade this series erratically and inadequately. Unfortunately, the grades swing both ways, and all too often, coins with problems (which most bust halves do have problems) are encapsulated with no mention of problems, whether it be light cleaning, planchet defects, strike deficiency, whatever, even if the grade is netted! The use of the same generic grades used to grade State quarters and Walking Liberty halves implies that somehow, generic grading works for bust halves. That is far from the truth, and anyone who has collected them for awhile knows it. The sad thing is that the overgraded coins tend to stay in their tombs, while the undergraded ones obviously get cracked out and speculated to death.

 

4. Most collectors who like this series are old-school types who just don't need, and just don't care about the anonymous, faceless opinions of some "third party". They appreciate the opportunity to form their own opinion without outside bias or interference.

 

5. Too many attribution errors by TPGs are on the market. I have seen major mistakes made by collectors on coins that were misattributed, where a coin was attributed as something rare, when in fact it was a common variety.

 

6. The fact is that from the standpoint of economics, the slab rarely adds value to the coin - IF you sell in the right venue. And a major national auction is not the right venue! If you have a collection with rarities, condition census coins, etc., then the only way to really get the best economic return is through a specialized auction, and I assure you, the folks that bid in those auctions do not want slabs around their coins. I know that it's easy to assume that a slab makes a bust half more "liquid", and maybe it does, but it is by no means an assurance of "maximum return" on the coin, except maybe within the limitations of a generic auction. Having sold many bust halves both slabbed and unslabbed, I am certain that there is no advantage with slabs given the right audience, ie. the audience that knows how to appreciate them and will probably pay the most anyway.

 

7. Finally, the huge majority of these coins are only valued in the $50 - $300 range. If you average $35 certification cost per coin (taking into account bodybags, shipping, your time, etc), that's a loss of about 12% to 60% per coin! Would you accept that kind of performance from your stock broker? Do you really want to pay what amounts to that much extra tax on your coins? I don't! It's different if the coin is a $1000 coin that needs that third-party grade to retain that value, but most of them are just not in that range.

 

Great topic! I don't hope to try and "convince" anyone with my points, but I do hope it gives you something to think about.

[rrantique]

Why do we like to break them out?

 

I am probably in the minority on a TPG sponsored board, but I DO NOT LIKE slabs. I not only can't examine the edges, I can't see the obverse and reverse as well as a raw coin. Looking at and studying the coins in my collection are the major reasons I collect.

 

Monetary loss from cracking them is simply irrelevant to me. I spent entertainment dollars to buy them. That money (as far as I am concerned) is just as gone as if I had spent it in Vegas. They will not be for sale as long as I am around. As for what my adult children will get for them after my death...I don't care!!! I didn't collect the coins for their benefit.

 

That pretty much sums it up. (thumbs u

[MikeKing]

this is an excellent post!

[GAB]

This is a great post !!

 

I think Ed sums up my opinion very well !!

 

That is:

Sometimes I like them raw, and sometimes I like them slabbed!!!

 

It just depends on when and how you ask me ........

[TomB]

I may actually be in the minority as far as collecting older half dollars is concerned, but I have never cracked out an FH, DBHE or CBH from its holder. Oddly enough, I have cracked out an RE from its holder. My collection has not been put together by die variety, but has been put together in the quest for original, very attractive coins that represent, in my opinion, good value. This has not been a trivial expense on my part since I have managed to gather up a complete date set of FH, DBHE and RE halves as well as select CBHs including the 1815/2 all in strong VF or EF with a few coins even in choice AU.

 

While I would never counsel an experienced collector to keep one of these coins in its TPG holder should he or she want to crack it out, I would also never tell someone to crack the coins out in order to enjoy them more thoroughly. I own raw coins of these types and enjoy them, but the slabbed coins will stay that way for ease of liquidation in emergency, for an assurance of likely better value retention in the event that my family must deal with the coins and for protection of the coin's surfaces over longterm storage since I have never found a completely satisfactory way of storing these generally larger coins. I respect the desires of others to enjoy the coins as they please, but do not think less of anyone as a numismatist, scholar or early half connoisseur should they want the coins slabbed.

[James_OldeTowne]

Tom, good points and an excellent post.

 

I should have stated in my earlier post that although I prefer to have all my bust halves cracked out, the fact is that I DON'T always do so! I agree that it's a decision that must be made on a coin by coin basis. And, "value" isn't always the determining factor. The most valuable bust half I've ever owned (and still do) was one I cracked out the instant I got it home. But I currently have six CBHs that are not cracked out, just simply because I feel that they will sell better in their slabs, for various reasons.

 

That said, any half that I intend to keep basically forever gets cracked out.

 

Great discussion!