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Have you ever seen a 65 RB classic head large cent?

Started by MikeInFL,

31 posts in this topic

realone

realone

Posted
Posted

Nope, small date pretty damn rare if you ask me and in such a state, WOWZER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thanks for showing, but in the end all I get is very depressed for never being able to buy one.

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James_OldeTowne

James_OldeTowne

Posted
Posted

Michael is right - that coin as imaged doesn't look right at all for MS-65 RB. I have seen at least a couple of Classic heads that were significantly nicer than that, neither one certified. I'd have to go back through my old EAC catalogs, but I believe there's an 1811 that is nearly fully O-R-I-G-I-N-A-L- RED that would grade commercially around MS-67. I believe its EAC condition census grade is MS-65.

 

 

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MarkFeld

MarkFeld

Posted
Posted
Michael is right - that coin as imaged doesn't look right at all for MS-65 RB. I have seen at least a couple of Classic heads that were significantly nicer than that, neither one certified. I'd have to go back through my old EAC catalogs, but I believe there's an 1811 that is nearly fully O-R-I-G-I-N-A-L- RED that would grade commercially around MS-67. I believe its EAC condition census grade is MS-65.

 

I believe that I have seen the coin in person and that the MS65RB grade it's been assigned is deserved.

 

Edited to add: I do believe that the major grading companies are more forgiving/easier with respect to the required color for a "RB" or "RD" designation for early copper (1793-1814 in the case of Large Cents).

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RGT

RGT

Posted
Posted

If the image is correct, that color would never be RB in a small cent. But then, they aren't pure copper. I do see plenty of luster and very few spots or marks. The scan in the slab doesn't look so good though.

 

The way the stars on the right are "reaching" for the rim reminds me of many bust halves. That may be due to the off center strike more than die wear since the ones on the left look fairly normal. The reverse is even more off center to the point that the letters are starting to clinb over the edge of the coin.

 

What would cause the slightly arched lines of tone on the lower obverse? They look like partial concentric rings centered several inches off of the coin.

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MikeInFL

MikeInFL

Posted
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FWIW, I agree with those who've questioned the RB designation (and I wonder if the coin wasn't more red when it was slabbed in the early 1990's). However, I also believe there is a great deal of truth in Mark's words, having seen this "relaxed" standard used on the Nichols find (Draped Bust) large cents:

 

I do believe that the major grading companies are more forgiving/easier with respect to the required color for a "RB" or "RD" designation for early copper (1793-1814 in the case of Large Cents).

 

Regardless, this coin struck me not only for the amazingly clean surfaces and the complete lack of porosity so prevalent in this series, but also the simple fact that some mint red remains on a classic head large cent -- something that I'd never seen before.

 

Have fun...Mike

 

p.s. James, I'd sure like to see that 1811!!!

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leeg

leeg

Posted
Posted

:cloud9:

 

That is one beautiful example. Don't care about the designation. These are Super Difficult to find in a non corroded state of preservation. When you do find one, $$$$$$$$$$!

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MarkFeld

MarkFeld

Posted
Posted

 

Here are images from what I believe to be a previous offering of the coin. While I can't guarantee that the color is more true-to-life than in the ones Mike posted, I think you will agree that it looks more "RB" here:

AN40568134-oz.jpgAN40568134-rz.jpg

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MarkFeld

MarkFeld

Posted
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I viewed the coin today, and, in addition to it not being the one I thought I'd seen previously, to my eyes it is not even close to "RB". It is so obviously "BN" that I would bet it changed color after it was encapsulated.

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James_OldeTowne

James_OldeTowne

Posted
Posted
I viewed the coin today, and, in addition to it not being the one I thought I'd seen previously, to my eyes it is not even close to "RB". It is so obviously "BN" that I would bet it changed color after it was encapsulated.

Mark, perhaps of more importance, did the color and surface quality appear original? Your comments implying that the coin may have toned in the holder seems like it may support my earlier concern about the originality of the piece. It just doesn't look right from the images. Thanks.

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MarkFeld

MarkFeld

Posted
Posted
I viewed the coin today, and, in addition to it not being the one I thought I'd seen previously, to my eyes it is not even close to "RB". It is so obviously "BN" that I would bet it changed color after it was encapsulated.

Mark, perhaps of more importance, did the color and surface quality appear original? Your comments implying that the coin may have toned in the holder seems like it may support my earlier concern about the originality of the piece. It just doesn't look right from the images. Thanks.

James, I didn't look at it carefully, but I saw nothing that made me question its originality. I'd advise against making assessments based on the images, as they weren't anywhere close to true-to-life.

 

Yet another reason PCGS nixed their copper guarantee.
Jack, I have not heard that and don't think it's the case. Where did you see or hear about that? Thanks.
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michael

michael

Posted
Posted

i was surprised at this comment myself

 

pcgs always had ............... AND still has hm a guarantee for all copper they have certified red and rb........................

 

 

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xJack

xJack

Posted
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If that's the case, I stand corrected -

 

A couple of years ago I was told by a dealer friend that he was unable to get satisfaction on a couple of S-VDB's that had turned in their holders.

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MikeInFL

MikeInFL

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If that's the case, I stand corrected -

 

A couple of years ago I was told by a dealer friend that he was unable to get satisfaction on a couple of S-VDB's that had turned in their holders.

 

You have just hit on a very good point -- the arbiter of the grade guarantee is PCGS, so if in their opinion the coin doesn't deserve to be downgraded, it won't. That's very different from not having a guarantee, which, in fact, PCGS does, but it is far from perfect, in my opinion, and probably the opinion of your dealer friend...Mike

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MarkFeld

MarkFeld

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If that's the case, I stand corrected -

 

A couple of years ago I was told by a dealer friend that he was unable to get satisfaction on a couple of S-VDB's that had turned in their holders.

Unfortunately, the grading companies which offer grade guarantees are the arbiters of whether given coins have been over-graded. And in the case of color on copper, they get to determine whether the color designation is correct/acceptable or not.

 

Let's face it, it's impossible for them or anyone in their position to be completely objective in making such determinations, knowing that in many cases, honoring the guarantee can cost hundreds or thousands of dollars. That said, in their defense, there are probably many occasions when coins are submitted under the grade and/or color guarantee that are perfectly fine.

 

pcgs always had ............... AND still has hm a guarantee for all copper they have certified red and rb........................

 

How about NGC?

 

Mike, see here

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MikeInFL

MikeInFL

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Thanks for the link Mark. After taking a look, the details that are particularly applicable to this thread seem to be:

 

The NGC Guarantee does not apply to copper, bronze or copper nickel coins graded by NGC prior to April 1, 2000.

 

To the extent that the NGC Guarantee applies to copper, bronze, or copper nickel coins, the NGC Guarantee expires with respect to such coin(s) on the ten year anniversary of the date of encapsulation by NGC.

 

Which begs the question -- how would one know, from looking at the slab, when it was graded and if this limited guarantee is still in effect? Last time I checked, NGC slabs didn't have a "born on" date. ;)

 

 

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xJack

xJack

Posted
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Which begs the question -- how would one know, from looking at the slab, when it was graded and if this limited guarantee is still in effect? Last time I checked, NGC slabs didn't have a "born on" date. ;)

 

 

Furthermore, does a reholder/regrade "reset" the 10 year time limit?

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