Joseph Franklin

I'll try and stay context with the terms and definitions I broadly have stated. I'm sitting with the utmost humility, and only know what I'm learning as I go.

As it matches other DDO'S with type 4 & 5 spreads to them. So, this coin matches those types of variations, and I compare what this coin does have that isn't on any of the known books and websites I've used in attributing this coin as a DDO. I know this isn't type 1 FS-101, that's quite clear. But what it does do is match up to other types of spreading seen throughout the wheat pennies life. And just like the one found in the 1960's had to be verified from the mint. So too, this coin is going through the very same process of investigation. It doesn't have any of the hallmarks of a worthless strike. So, when all this evidence of reference material like a 1958-D DDO on hand to compare it to and that 58-D matches what is listed over numerous volumes of texts. Here's what I'm talking about. I have a 1958-D DDO that I'll be using here to demonstrate my point. I have every right to argue my case and submitting evidence in support of; why I would even be so silly to say I have a 1958-P DDO Penny. 

http://varietyvista.com/01a LC Doubled Dies Vol 1/1958DDDO002.htm

Here's one from 1959-P. As you can see that the 9 on the end has the same build up and curving as the "9" in my 1958-P.

http://www.varietyvista.com/01b LC Doubled Dies Vol 2/1959PDDO001.htm

Here's my own 1958-D..... They are types 1 and types 2. 

I do apologise for creating this is the wrong space. I'll make sure to double check before hitting submit.

I'm looking for any information regarding Die Variations of the 1958-P DDO. I have 2 58's that have doubling in LIBERTY and IGWT, and the date. 1 of the coins took a hard hit breaking off part of the 8. What other die type of flaw or degradation would cause such raised and rounded doubling? I don't even have an example of a 1958 die deterioration to compare to to eliminate as being damaged and not a true DDO. 

All I know is what I read and am able to compare too. I would have preferred getting more information on this coin then get on here and get told by someone else that your research is faulty. If this coin came from a well know collector automatically it would be shown to be authentic even if it hasn't been graded. It's the nature of who we are. If I'm wrong on the Doubling please share with me an example that looks like this, that's damage or due to die failure. 

Gentlemen, be mindful too. I know nothing besides Christ crucified that's all I know okay so I'm not claiming I know anything but that!

Secondly all we have are the books on dies and the strikes that they leave when they strike the coin and the different dies used and bottom line how they look you can give me all the knowledge in the world but I have to look at it to verify it right? I'm not trying to play anybody Mr Joe slick I don't really care what you think I'm here to gain knowledge but.... Dude it sucks that I have to go through this through you guys because I'm asking questions. You don't know what it's like for us... It it's iincredible. And thirdly you don't own this space, and I'm not that person that you compared me to or that you think that I am all I'm doing is talking about coins bro but if you don't like what I'm saying leave me alone don't just don't let me sit there and talk to my self.

Please excuse my sentences and missing words. Get blown through a brick wall by a carbomb, a 2 IEDS, just not the same man I once was. Things are different now...And another thing. A true doubled die doesn't have the spread like these famous ones do. Here's an example from my own bunch. 1958 DDO.

Lol...Roger that. And no other coins will leaving. I'm humbled. In this era of coins the DDO&R are tightly fit together. The stacking is tight or "the spread" next to ontop of each other. (The art of post editing helps in this field of picture story telling). The 1997 shows great spreading. That isn't shadow in the serif letting. The 1993 the angle and brightness is up to high to get that one. But all these coins follow right along with variety Vista's book on doubled dies. Especially with these 2 coins. The lamentation missing behind the first "T" in truth for both coins... Then when you have a magnifying glass or loop and slightly tilt the coin you see the breaks and build up of the 2nd strike. I pretty much have 200+ coins all doubled die and DDR so I have plenty of reference material on hand if I am wondering about it being a DDO. The top and bottom of the lettering on reverse is bubbles at the top and that bubbling of you follow it around the whole coin; which is just another indicator of a DDR....

I already know they are both what I claim, but I'd be happy to give more pics to justify my question.

I'll take better ones for the sake of brevity

Lol...Roger that. And no other coins will leaving. I'm humbled. In this era of coins the DDO&R are tightly fit together. The stacking is tight or "the spread" next to ontop of each other. (The art of post editing helps in this field of picture story telling). The 1997 shows great spreading. That isn't shadow in the serif letting. The 1993 the angle and brightness is up to high to get that one. But all these coins follow right along with variety Vista's book on doubled dies. Especially with these 2 coins. The lamentation missing behind the first "T" in truth for both coins... Then when you have a magnifying glass or loop and slightly tilt the coin you see the breaks and build up of the 2nd strike. I pretty much have 200+ coins all doubled die and DDR so I have plenty of reference material on hand if I am wondering about it being a DDO. The top and bottom of the lettering on reverse is bubbles at the top and that bubbling of you follow it around the whole coin; which is just another indicator of a DDR....

I already know they are both what I claim, but I'd be happy to give more pics to justify my question.

I'll take better ones for the sake of brevity.

These two coins are the finest in condition I have in my line of Lincoln Doubled Die pennies. Starting from 1927-2000, the year I graduated high school and going off to join the Army Infantry. Here are 2 undocumented DDO/DDR's 1993-D & 1997-D. Here are my questions.

1. Because the coin was struck twice and in doing so caused "damage" or altered the appearance from the original state, but the current state of the "new coin" being struck again is actually causing the damage, or new appearance/die gouges, scratches, etc. Do they lower the grading?

2. Because it is a DDO/DDR and unique and will cause these changes do they only play a part identifying a true DDO DDR?

On 3/10/2022 at 11:54 AM, Just Bob said:

Even though you didn't say this was a "guess the grade," I'm going to toss my opinion out there. I think the nickel will come back as a 66, maybe a 67, no cameo.

Lastly.... Here's another photo of a MS67 from PCGS, but with the all white background too. A 68 would be great and the ONLY REASON I GIVE IT a low 68 is because the Reverse side on my Nickel matches or is a little better than what PCGS has listed

On 3/10/2022 at 11:54 AM, Just Bob said:

Even though you didn't say this was a "guess the grade," I'm going to toss my opinion out there. I think the nickel will come back as a 66, maybe a 67, no cameo.

Here's another pic to help. Frosty white....and when you rotate it you can get those glass like features. And I researched this nickel for a good minute before submitting. What I discovered was I smoke!!!! The top dog I mean smoke the dude on the Reverse side. He doesn't have Full-Steps, I do, he has die buffing in the field areas, so, is a 66 possible, yes, but so is a 68, if I'm going off of what has been submitted of course.

On 3/10/2022 at 11:54 AM, Just Bob said:

Even though you didn't say this was a "guess the grade," I'm going to toss my opinion out there. I think the nickel will come back as a 66, maybe a 67, no cameo.

Right on. Not all the pictures highlight that. But appreciate your opinion.

On 3/9/2022 at 10:01 PM, Coinbuf said:

Good luck on the submission please update once you have the grades, curious why you sent these to PCGS rather than NGC.

Didn't answer your question....Er, umm....sheer stupidity. No bull. But now that I'm in the system and seeing how the pieces move around and who has more authority in grading say so. Stuff like that.

Like, right now I'm stuck on 2 coins and how to proceed. I have 2 MS68+ 1993-D, 1997-D DDO's. Do I send them to a pre-atrributionist first to get labeled DDO/DDR, because both of them are, or do you include your own dictations and research on the coin and supply that info with your submission? And after 20 years of grandma giving me pennies that 90% are Doubled Died.....It makes your brains hurt a lot!!!! So much research. But how did she know way back when what would explode? Incredible. I would love more than anything than to sell my coin set and build a community orphanage built on the gospel. That's my dream brother!

On 3/10/2022 at 7:24 AM, J P Mashoke said:

Good luck with your submissions Joe. Most SMS coins do not grade to high. I have quite a few 76er's and if you have a 1976 DDR I can't wait to see that one, that may cover the cost of submission.  

Definitely agree on that it will cover the cost! So hey here's some of the pictures that I took of the SMS Nickel before sending it off.

I took tons of pictures of the coins and are posted on my Shopify website. Ian and Eve Antiques. That's all I'll say because I'm not here to promote or sell anything, but that's where the best pictures are of each coin.

On 3/9/2022 at 10:01 PM, Coinbuf said:

Good luck on the submission please update once you have the grades, curious why you sent these to PCGS rather than NGC.

All brilliant responses! I too am in the same boat of cost benefit ratio. It's also a gamble too, and after turning in my first set of coins and my own personal values on gambling, it doesn't sit well with me. As JP notes, your mindset going into this must be made up and hopefully for a good reason. That liquidity factor is very helpful. Like, the last 1966 SMS 5C DCAM MS68 sold for $9,700. That's why I made sure my coin matched their top winner of beat it. Honestly, I went into this wanting to beat out all those MS68's with all their scratches and missing steps even on an SMS strike which should be starting point #1. Since all SMS are supposed to have full steps why are thousand dollar coins lacking that and getting MS67/+? I'll be happy once it's all over.

Oh and welcome back too! I just started back up as well.

Lol 🤣 you mean this one? Oooo.... It's gonna be...what, 50 BUSINESS DAYS! But I get it. So much change, cost going up on everything! Ugh! And I have a '76 Bicentennial DDR getting Certified. I only submitted what I thought was the most cost productive means. If It comes back a grade or 2 on any of those coins I'll be above board. My favorite out of the bunch....that '66 SMS DCAM. I couldn't quite except what I had for a few days. Plus with the Reverse-side being absolutely unremarkable and untoned...I had to pull the trigger. This one little SMS set that I had never examined up until a month ago. Wow. I've had the set for 25+ years! I love it. Oh dude! And....the SMS Cameo Penny I submitted was a DDR. I asked them in the notes area to pay special attention to the reverse side for a Doubled Die. Crazy. It would be interesting to see the type of labeling they put on it. 

JP! I feel you on that. I don't even consider any of my own pieces higher than a 65, maybe a 66. Let's say I submit my coins and because of who I'm not or the collection they came from they're graded differently from the start. When it should be the other way around. 

Lovely answers and profound amount of knowledge given by everyone! The coin hunting will continue. What I appreciate is the stricter I have become in labeling my own collection. This Nickel is one that won't be going into my DDO/DDR collection.  Oldhoopster's comment, thank you for the specific information. 

Blessings and peace to all for your kindnesses and patience. Thank you for willing to reach, cause I'm listening with ears wide open and mouth shut. 

Sidebar comment...I sent off my 1968-D DDR quarter to get graded by PCGS and for them to check the Obverse for doubling as well. I did my research before I asked them to check for the Obverse doubling.

It's seeing the double profile with the naked eye that has me puzzled. Lol...because the top of his head grows like an alien when you change the perspective. Just isn't your typical strike. I wish you could see with a loupe what I see. That subtle little break on the devices to show more evidence of the 2nd strike. 

Obviously not. JKK, that's why I'm here to get more opinions because this one's got me scratching my head. The profile of the dome, and his face, and the typical spot on the bow is all there. But you said it best there are some inconsistencies. 

The angled pictures are to show the doubling outline around the bust and the bow on the back of his head. You can see the original strike area. From my investigations thus far, within my own doubled die collection; this feature of a "double outline"  spills out across all denominations using our mint machines.

It's cool to hopefully share with y'all something unique and exciting to research and discuss. 

Thank you again everyone who has taken their time to participate, no one had too, but you did and that warms my heart. 

Alrighty then I totally see what you mean in terms of magnification and readability. I appreciate your patience. 

Yes agreed to all of the above, and yes both sides have doubling, so we're looking at both sides for examination. Whew....and yes, a macro lens is the best way to get in close, but that's not always the case.... I'll use my phone and get back. Thank you for your input and newness of eyes. After spending hours looking and this stuff daily. Yike....

Hope that helps JP. Let me know if I need to adjust any lighting issues. You can see the double dome with the naked eye. If in fact it is doubling and not some weird post minting process.

Transfered the pics from the Canon to the phone. So here they are! You can really see the doubling on the some of Jefferson Memorial. As you all know angles and lighting are important in seeing features that show specifications for a DDO/DDR.

Has anyone come across a 1990-D Nickel that has been designated by Variety Vista Catalog?I went there and only saw one for S mint. Because after spending nearly an hour photographing and looking at it through a Loop I know the lines and dimples the surrounding area make if it's a true DDO. A big factor is the hairbow doubling.

I'm looking to know how to price it. But for know I would to know if anyone has seen a 1990-D 5c DDO?