Mr.Mcknowitall

16 hours ago, MarkFeld said:

John, what coin or coins do you think deserve the title "King of Mint Errors"?

 

Thanks

Good Morning, Mark. My choice of words might have caused a logical interpretation that I concur that bronze cents (all Mints) are "errors". 

I do not. I am not aware of any definitive proof that clandestine and/or purposeful human intent was not the cause of the bronze cents (and many other "errors").

Concerning your question, is the deserving title to be awarded based on public/collector popularity, or market value, or collector desire (different from popularity), or quantity?

For rarity based on quantity, my choice would be the 1866 no motto quarter, half, and dollar, not listed in the mint reports and not intended for circulation.

That the pieces escaped the Mint, and were even made, is indeed an error, in my opinion.

As to public/collector popularity, it is a 3-way tie between the 37D  3-Legged Indian Head Nickel and the 1909S, V.D.B. or 1955 Double Die Lincoln Wheat Ears Reverse Small Cent.

As to collector desire, and based only on my experience at various Shows over the years, and general conversation with many different types and personalities of collectors and Dealers, my opinion would be the 37-D 3-Legged Indian Head Nickel.

For market value, I would not know where to begin. I would think this would be based strictly on selling price, and since this is subject to any given day....and based only on that criteria....it would be the highest selling price for an error. But (there is always a "but"), I personally eliminate any piece that is questionable as to whether the piece was created due to clandestine and/or human intent, which is a problem with so many so-called errors/misstrikes, etc.

51 minutes ago, MarkFeld said:

Welcome to the forum. The cents you mentioned were altered outside the mint, post-production and are not errors.

 

As far back as I can remember, I have been on the 'contrarian' side of thought concerning the 1943 bronze cent "King of Mint Errors". I remain so, and have never read anything that persuades me to change my position.

3 McDonalds $1 coins 

27 minutes ago, jtryka said:

This one arrived in the mail today, man these things are addictive!

 

In 1814 we took a little trip.......Great piece, one of my personal favorites and year.

10 hours ago, EleMint Man said:

Wow...Fernández-Armesto gained media attention in 2007 for his alleged brutalising by five policemen in Atlanta, Georgia, as a result of jaywalkin

On 8/27/2017 at 3:36 PM, Nutmeg Coin said:

https://indiancountrymedianetwork.com/history/events/8-myths-and-atrocities-about-christopher-columbus-and-columbus-day/

Reading Felipe Fernandez-Armesto on the subject is  always good.

11 minutes ago, oih82w8 said:

If CAC liked my coin (beaned it), then I think they are great!  If CAC passed (no bean) on my coin, I begin to question my own ability for eye appeal.  Do I get rid of the coin simply because JA did not bean it?  Of course not...it is just an opinion.

But, it might not be your own lack of ability for eye appeal. It may be the CAC lack of ability for the particular coin, or may reflect a coin that CAC is not making a market in, or has already saturated the market being made for the particular coin. If your own ability is satisfactory to you, while it is nice to have a corresponding opinion, that does not negate your opinion at all. Of course, you know this, so I am not sure why I even mention it, except I feel bad when I see a person chastising themselves for no logical reason. 

Perhaps Mark! Considering many a dealer and auction service use the little green egg sticker on a slab to inflate the price , as compared to a comparable coin without it ! So I'm sure many dealers as well those collectors who buy and sell on a consistent basis such as yourself . Definitely see the benefits of the pretty little sticker ! It's called higher profits! Undeniably higher cost to the buyer of such sticker coins . Simply another gimmick to extract higher profits for nothing. I await the next level . What shall we have this time ? Perhaps a little gold star with another services , or nationally known dealers ensignia embossed on it ! Just to ensure that the opinion of the grading service that certified/graded the coin and the CAC services opinion as to the grading services opinion are considered by the Little Gold Star Corp as being correct in their opinion and on and on and on. Give me a break !

You're most welcome to pay top dollar for that pretty little green sticker. As for me , I will just have to be satisfied with using my own judgement as to the quality of the coins I purchase at what is most certainly a discounted price by comparison. In fact , I applaud you . Bravo !

The Late Great Mr. P. T. Barnum would certainly be amused at the parallel to his famous quote.

"There is a sucker born every minute " .

Not that it matters much, but Barnum didn't say that. It was David Hannum, a banker, who himself was not so kissyface huggybear honest.

Aren't they, in a way, saying the grade on the slab is wrong?

 

Not necessarily. In fact, they have stated that just because they don't sticker a coin doesn't mean it's over-graded. They might think it's (in my words) a low end or ordinary example for the grade.

If I remember correctly, Mark, during the original formation meetings and the subsequent formation and implementation, I recall the explanation was ordinary for the grade and this was not the market CAC was making.

Also, the A B C thing has been going on with dealers for many years..

 

Yes, CAC has merely created a third party mechanism to separate what are, in there opinion, the A and B coins from the C coins. This is something dealers have been doing all along.

4th party.

That is in the next paragraph of the business model.

CAC is NOT grading. CAC is making a market, and has brilliantly executed the business plan. The business model has firmly established SCOTUSCOIN.

I don't know, just seems a way to try and jack up a coins value over its grade.

 

Or what.

 

CAC offers a highly expert opinion at a very modest price. Please note, I used the word "opinion". CAC is not always consistent and often, others disagree with their opinions. Some of those who disagree are highly expert and many of those who disagree are highly non-expert.

 

Some coins are worth submitting to CAC and others aren't.

 

Some coins bring more money with CAC stickers - sometimes much more. Other coins barely benefit from CAC stickers.

 

Many coins are more liquid with CAC stickers, even if they don't bring noticeably more money.

 

Dealers can benefit from CAC, and so can collectors. And both groups can be hurt by it if they pay too much for CAC coins or their non CAC coins bring less than they would in a CAC-less world.

 

Edited to add: Thank you, Hack.

Logic

SCOTUSCOIN

Sounds like you've already made up your mind.

No, he hasn't. He is just a very straightforward straight talking fellow that does not mince words. He is becoming more involved with coins, and has stepped up his participation in the coin forums. That is a good thing. He is a face value fellow.

He is a very quick study.

I have never known him to sound like anything but himself, and that is consistent.

Don't put it past him to come up with a drone coin delivery system that would solve a lot, and/or drone coin review system for buyers/sellers.

I think I know more about Native Americans than he does. Wishful thinking on my part. I think I can probably take better pictures of the night sky than he does. Wishful thinking on my part. I think I can irritate others more than he does. That is probably true (by a whisker).

When this happened to World Coins in 2012, I moved my entire collection to PCGS and haven't looked back since.

 

What was the motivation for doing so? Was your collection a greater percentage of PCGS coins, or was it an economic based decision because of perceived increased value in the market, or just a protest against change, in that a free stuff registry model disappeared, i.e. a competitor decided to not support another competitor? Does PCGS allow NGC in their world coin registry?

 

I had about 50% of my collection in PCGS plastic at the time of the announcement and had to make a decision whether I would stay with NGC or move to PCGS. The reason I decided to go with PCGS is due to being a big believer in customer experience as a differentiator between service providers. The way NGC approached the move and the overall lack of communication / acknowledgement of the additional pains their existing customers had to go through with regards to their collection choices (and associated financial impact) made me feel like NGC didn't really care about what I thought or felt as a consumer of their services. It was an unpleasant experience, especially since I spent my own time and helped initially craft a number of Colonial Mexico registry sets.

Thanks for your answer. It is understandable you feel this way.

58 was one of the more brilliant marketing new deals since Roosevelt. Culls were and are silly, imho.

If people are annoyed because of a slight inconvenience with 2 sets of software, I would not want to think what would happen if the power was out more than an hour. Everybody is different, or course, but it seems like such a small inconvenience to base a decision to abandon one registry over another. I understand the gap issue, but the person would still have gaps, I would think.Why not just re-grade in a new holder or crossover or whatever method? If the person is sure the coin is the technical grade it should be, there would not be a problem crossing over, would there? Or in the alternative, sell to the persosn using the one type of registry and purchase what they need for the registry they decide to use.

I am certain PCGS and to some degree NGC benefit from market chaos. One of the time honored market ploys for profit is creating chaos in some manner with the product being marketed. It is almost a crowd funding in reverse method. Airlines are especially adept at this business method and are constantly creating chaos to improve the cash basket. This should come as no surprise to anyone involved in collecting.

As to the guarantee, there is criticism to be had across the board. There was an interesting discussion on these boards about just that. The only guarantee is there is no absolute "guaranty".

I understand the reasons you are positing, but at the end of the day, the only constant I detect in the decisions by collectors to leave NGC is there was a free stuff level and now there won't be a free stuff level. The illogical logic, to me, is that while Attica has its usefulness, if the ame collectors(s) decide that PCGS is in there interest, PCGS does not have the free stuff option, either. So, what point is really being made, because if the loyalty basis of the collector was based on a free stuff offering and now it is being pulled, that is not brand loyalty, at all.

It is possible that NGC is alienating those collectors that were not brand loyal to begin with, because if this is the reason the collector is choosing to switch, there is no loyalty to be had from the entity they want to switch to anyway. So what is the point?

Having said that, NGC should run some $5 cross-over specials to help reduce the cost of aligning to their NGC-only Registry vision for those who want to stay.

I don't think that would be an unreasonable approach and makes some business sense. But, since you have not personally looked back after departing, would this change your mind?

When this happened to World Coins in 2012, I moved my entire collection to PCGS and haven't looked back since.

What was the motivation for doing so? Was your collection a greater percentage of PCGS coins, or was it an economic based decision because of perceived increased value in the market, or just a protest against change, in that a free stuff registry model disappeared, i.e. a competitor decided to not support another competitor? Does PCGS allow NGC in their world coin registry?

Do not discount the popularity of the registry set driving up the interest in coin collecting. NGC's decision will initially hurt your auction business and the hobby as a whole. It is only a matter of time before NGC removes the PCGS coins completely from their registry set. People who have collected both PCGS and NGC coins and added them to their NGC registry sets will not look through different auction houses every week seeking upgrades or new coins for their registry sets. They will be discouraged. Most registry set players will be very hesitant and selective about what they now buy.

Is it your opinion that the 'players" were not selective prior to the announcement? That seems a bit self defeating. But, as I said I don't participate in the registry, so I don't have a stake.

I really don't see how an auction house would be hurt to the degree you opine. Actually I think it would increase business for an auction house.

Full disclosure: edited to change hoe to how, and capitalize Actually, and add I after Actually.

I am an older generation member, so grammar and typing speed and eyesight diminishes.

Darn it, that is supposed to be auction, not action. Gosh, I am getting really old.

Any more mistakes found, please just blow my face off. It would be the only cure against further old ageism grammar and spelling.

Very well said Kaiser14! You have given some great examples to back up your point.One question I can’t answer is what % of classic slabbed coin collectors actively use the NGC registry. Obviously no one knows. Say it 10%. To me they have forced that 10% of the collecting populace to decide between buying from/submitting to one of the services. As the number 2 company do they really think they would get more business from this move? To me I would think more people would go to PCGS coins because of the higher apparent resale value- so it would be a net loss of business versus keeping the status quo. Sure- maybe the modern collectors who already submit to NGC will be thrilled to move up in the rankings- but really how much of a % of the market are the modern collectors? As you said maybe they want to just corner the market on Modern and World coins and let the classic collectors go to PCGS?

 

I agree with you. I think there are more PCGS collectors that are brand loyal than NGC collectors. I may very well be wrong, but it will be interesting to see. I predict that this will hurt NGC's bottom line, and given some of the posts from people here, it may cause many of its most loyal customers to defect.

I don't participate in the registry and would not know how to begin.

I am interested, though, on some of the focus points about the issue.

If registry participants move to PCGS because of the apparent resale value, then the focus is economic gain, is it not? If it was not economic gain, what would be so bad about participating in both registries? Would that not be just as enjoyable and maybe even more challenging? I can understand that NGC offered a collector advantage because it accepted PCGS and PCGS did not accept NGC, so it was a convenience of sorts. If NGC had mimicked PCGS, how many of the collectors that utilize NGC would have stayed brand loyal to NGC, and vice versa, or would they have stayed with PCGS because of the perceived economic gain?

I am not certain NGC will be hurt via the bottom line. What is the cost to NGC of running the registry? I also think there are many more modern and world collectors than generally assumed, and the younger generation is going to go where they are most welcome. Whether that is NGC or PCGS remains to be seen. PCGS has had a free ride in the registry at the expense of NGC. As a business, NGC is no more responsible to increasing the profit center of PCGS than PCGS is responsible for same toward NGC. I do think, based on many shows I have attended and participated in, that the world collecting community is quite prevalent, and younger collectors are very astute at "discovering" the value and fun of collecting world and modern. What we as U.S. coin collectors consider classic, in time and design and value, is a new born baby in the world of Europe and Asia and South America. The world has become much smaller and the younger generation are the rulers of communication in that world. The TPG that gets that and caters to it will be the recipient of loyal customers and a very large collector base. The amount of modern and world coin rarities is astounding. Just because what the U.S. collector believes is value and classic and rare, etc., and decides to focus only on the U.S. classic market, does not lessen the impact of the present younger generation(s) of collectors.

An example, only for purpose of illustrating my personal experience: Having spent a lot of time in European and Asian numismatic shops, I have always been impressed by the language abilities of the proprietors. In both venues, French and English and Spanish and Italian were spoken. The shops were quite busy whenever I was there, and there was a definite open social atmosphere and younger (18-40sh) multicultural clientele that were quite comfortable with the different numismatic interests among each other. How may coin shows in the U.S. are multilingual or multicultural, or attempt to advertise and inform multicultural communities?

... Seems to me that if my coins are worth more in PCGS holders then they must be generic coins then right ?....

 

No, non-generic coins often have much larger PCGS price premiums than generic ones.

....and they were often crossed over from NGC

I think it is my fault. I am sorry.....

Sad to see you go, HT I will miss your posts. I think leaving based on the actions of one administrator (right or wrong) is a little extreme but, that is your choice.

 

It is not just the administrator. The environment of these boards is growing increasingly toxic, and a couple of posters in particular are driving this place into the ground (for example, any time "MrMcKnowitall" shows up in a thread, you can guarantee it is going to be a miserable and unfortunate experience). The recent decisions by NGC won't help, of course, but the NGC forums have been doing their best Hindenburg impression for a while now.

 

I can understand your perspective.

 

I was always curious that there is an ignore function that can be used by members that are not pleased by the posts of others, yet when a member publicly states they have initiated the function for a certain member, darn if the person that initiated the function can still opine about the posts of the member they have initiated the ignore function for.

 

As an example, and not that it is important at all, but just an observation, I recall that many many months ago, you publicly stated you had initiated the function as a preference toward my posts. I did a little checking, and I had not remembered that you publicly stated this action 4 times, and 2 times in the last 2 months. You state in the post I am responding to, and I am only quoting for the purpose of illustration of my thoughts:

 

"....(for example, any time "MrMcKnowitall" shows up in a thread, you can guarantee it is going to be a miserable and unfortunate experience)..."

 

It appears that you are not really ignoring me, because if you were, then you would not know that which you stated, if you were in fact ignoring my posts. There is the issue, because as we all know, it is not really ignoring, because the ignore function does not "hide" the post when a member is off line, and when the member is on line, the member can reverse the ignore function and read in real time. Your posts over the last few months prove this, as indeed the post I am responding to does, when you refer to me or my posts. I think it would be very helpful to members like you, if when the ignore function is used, it can not be cancelled once initiated. This would prevent the human nature response of peeking, and lack of self restraint to truly ignore the member that caused you to initiate an ignore function. It is sort of a lack of self dignity and self discipline to peek, similar to cheating yourself. We all do it, though, and then profess loudly and repeatedly and publicly about the member we original had on ignore. This in turn usually causes the cheating member (as it applies to peeking even though the ignore function is on) to not be able to control themselves and to continue to foment a strange hatred and disgust and anger, and it soon starts effecting the same type of attitude toward many other aspects and people and situations. That is no way to live. There are many other important aspects of life a person can enjoy, rather than be obsessed with another member, or the host or the business choices of the host, or a person that disagrees with you, to the point that you feel the only tool at your disposal that helps to relieve your obsession is to attempt to belittle and be discourteous.

 

So, I agree with you that the host could help improve the boards a little for the members lacking in self restraint and self dignity and courtesy, by making the ignore function permanent in all situations and eliminate peeking, once the member initiates the action. I would not want to be the cause of any member being irate because they can not control their self harming human tendencies.

Were you posting in the HT thread that went poof?

 

Since you respond in the thread, I am sure you are aware I did so. I am also sure you are aware that I publicly stated I was notifying the Moderators that in my opinion the thread was political and would lead to no good. I always state openly when I use the notify function and always state why I did so.

I missed the thread but would love to read it. When your name was brought up in this thread, I figured you were part of or most of the reason the other thread went poof. From your own words it sounds like you created the problem and turned around and reported the thread. That's just not cool.

It's like you are on a mission to kill this site. I'll stop there because I don't understand all that was said.

It is quite alright. You can voice any opinion in any manner you prefer, about a post. What is not cool is not voicing an opinion and letting a member possibly getting a strike or time out, instead of a warning. Additionally, it is not fair to other members, as political posts always have a tendency to cause discontent and bickering and further strikes and time outs being given, and hard feelings. It is a waste of time. BTW, there were 4 other members that posted similar opinions, and 2 members that voiced ATTICA ATTICA ATTICA. It was not difficult to conclude where it was headed.

"The tone and topic of the post were not in keeping with the friendly atmosphere that we try to foster on the boards."

 

 

 

What is friendly about insinuating or outright calling DCarr a fraudster or counterfeiter? What is appropriate about members taking it upon themselves to determine what is or is not illegal and then attempting to enforce the law themselves via repeated intimidation and harassment?

 

Discussing politics is not appropriate, but repeated intimidation and harassment is?

 

I have not responded to your posts in some time, and I wouldn't on this occasion, except I thought you may be asking the question of me. It may also be that you are simply posting after my post, and that is why your post references mine.

 

I did not post the words you have quoted.

 

But, just in the off chance you were responding to my post for some reason, I have never called Mr. Carr a fraudster or a counterfeiter and have not been discourteous toward Mr. Carr in my posts or attempted to belittle him. He has resorted on occasion to posting in that manner, but I assume it is due to frustration. I freely admit I have been repetitive in my commentary and opinion of his use of the word LEGAL, and only because Mr. Carr has a tendency to obfuscate and misdirect the conversation concerning same. As an example, his opinions of the subject of using the word LEGAL on his websites without a statement that the endeavors have not been adjudicated is "that is all you are going to get".

 

My opinion of the endeavors of Mr. Carr is and has been very clear. His pieces have not been adjudicated as legal, and it is my opinion that any language that describes the pieces as legal in any manner on his websites can be misleading, and he has never opined why he won't pursue adjudication, which may very well be a very good approach for his business.

 

I did not declare the pieces legal or not legal or determine same. That is the function of the government to do so. It is not out of bounds to publicly declare such an opinion, nor is it a political discussion. Reading the thread of what is or is not political clarifies how the host views the subject.

 

I do agree that there has been discourteous posts and name calling toward Mr. Carr, which are in my opinion not necessary to make a point.

 

I of course can not answer for other members or their choice of words. Nor is it my place to determine an intent of intimidation or harassment via the posts of other members, but I know it when I see it, and to that degree I concur it has happened in my opinion.

 

My opinions are my own, and as such are not important at all. It is just chat board opinions.

 

 

 

No, my post was not directed at you specifically - but your replies are always interesting.

If only that was true, but I recognize my shortcomings and do not have any issue when they are described by other members. All are allowed opinions, whether we agree with same or not.