Tradedollarnut

I'll bet that the big majority of MS-63 Walkers, Washington quarters, Morgan dollars and Liberty nickels grade the same at both companies, just as some examples. I would bet that for a random sampling of 1000 such coins, 900 are interchangeably graded.

Probably true as these coins have very little crossover incentive.

On average do NGC coins typically grade the same if regraded by PCGS?

By the way, since nobody seems to have directly addressed this question: Aside from the "70" factor, NGC coins typically do grade the same as PCGS coins, no matter what others may tell you.

Actually [and it's not just semantics] it would be more proper to say that NGC typically grades coins the same as PCGS - however, I don't think it correct to say that NGC coins [available in the marketplace] typically grade the same as PCGS coins simply because of the ad nauseum crossover tries before the coins ever are available for sale. This sucks all the solid for the grade coins out of NGC holders leaving the lower end coins and giving the illusion that NGC grades far worse than they do.

With that said, it's readily obvious in some series they simply have different standards - such as proof seated dollars. Try to find a PCGS coin higher than PR64 - you really can't cuz they're all in NGC PF66-67 holders.

I still think it's a shame. If that's how our current manufacturing technology is, so be it - just don't award the grade of 70, which used to stand for perfection.

 

5x probably used to be the extent of our available magnification in the hobby - why do you insist on using the old standard of perfection with the new standard of magnification?

Because the grading companies that award the grades, up to an including 70, have the ability to use magnification greater than 5X. And if they didn't have such ability, they shouldn't include grades whose determination relies upon it.

Just because they have the ability to use an electron microscope to ensure perfection - should they?

I still think it's a shame. If that's how our current manufacturing technology is, so be it - just don't award the grade of 70, which used to stand for perfection.

5x probably used to be the extent of our available magnification in the hobby - why do you insist on using the old standard of perfection with the new standard of magnification?

No such thing as a "perfect" coin IMHO.

 

In the olden days 65 was the best that the TPGS offered.

The standards for a grade of 70 don't require perfection. I think that's a shame.

 

Define perfection.

The lack of imperfections, which are allowed under the standards for a grade of 70 at PCGS and NGC. Here is NGC's standard: "NGC defines a Mint State or Proof 70 coin as having no post-production imperfections at 5x magnification."

With our current manufacturing technology, there's no such thing as a 'lack of imperfections' in a coin. Pull out the scanning electron microscope and you will always find some. So in regards to coins, perhaps a lack of VISIBLE perfections is just fine as a definition and thus the 5x magnification makes a lot of sense and I don't think it's a shame at all.

The best bet is to save your money, and always buy the NGC 70 coin.

Nope - the best bet is to cherrypick a nice 69 coin regardless of the holder its in. In most instances, your eyes won't be able to tell the difference between a top end 69 and a low end 70 - but your pocketbook will!

No such thing as a "perfect" coin IMHO.

 

In the olden days 65 was the best that the TPGS offered.

The standards for a grade of 70 don't require perfection. I think that's a shame.

Define perfection.

I heard a rumor the bags actually came from Russia and the story was just that - a story. But that's just a rumor. I don't see why it would matter much.

It would seem Logical that if JA was proud of his experiences etc at TPG #1 and #2 that he would be shouting it to the Stars.

Sometimes, when you actually know WTF you are doing, you don't have to beat your own drum.

In almost any case I can think of, you'll still pay less for an A or B of MS6x than a C or D of MS6x+1.

Think about it.

If you guys understood how much value has been transferred FROM collectors TO coin doctors and crackout artists over the past decade, you might be a bit more receptive to CAC. I would guesstimate it's in the 8 figure range [hundreds of millions of dollars].

 

Crackout artists are demons. They have the nerve to use their knowledge and risk their capital to try and make a profit. Sickens me. These people are worse than child rapists!

What's bad, Greg, is the interaction between crackout artists and slow gradeflation and stagnant pricing. How many collectors or their heirs didn't realize that grades had changed by 1-2 points from the late 1980's to early 2000's? How much money was left on the table by these sellers to be raked up by the sharks? And how much extra was paid for essentially the same coin that had been worked over and maxxed out by the docs? Unless you're an insider, you just can't be aware of what's going on.

A hundred million dollars - sucked out of the hobby and into mansions in Orange County.

My goodness, Mark, if you think I owe someone an apology I will immediately apologize and will keep my opinions to my self from now on. Bruce sorry.

Jim

No worries.

If you guys understood how much value has been transferred FROM collectors TO coin doctors and crackout artists over the past decade, you might be a bit more receptive to CAC. I would guesstimate it's in the 8 figure range [hundreds of millions of dollars].

CAC is a trading network backed with $25M in capital. Stickered coins are eligible for subsequently sight unseen bids from CAC and its member dealers

 

Thanks, TDN. I now understand the purpose of CAC and I agree wholeheartedly with its premise. Its for private members only, as in a private club which can do as it pleases among its members. See, I was under the misunderstanding that it was established for the whole collector society. It's kind of like PCGS's forum, they are backing it with their money and should be able to run it as they see fit and darn anyone who says different. I truly have no problem with private clubs. I think they are an American way of life. Some are good and some are bad. Don't join if you don't believe in their concepts. (thumbs u

Jim

yuh, huh. Enjoy your collecting endeavors. When you get to the point where it matters to you if your holdered coin's been doctored, be sure to try to figure out some way of telling.

If the Supreme Court can't describe pornography, but knows it when it sees it... how can you expect a mere numismatist to describe the subtle differences between mint state grades?

Much of the disdain that I just can't help feeling for the CAC concept is that still, after reading through all this long interview and looking through the website, I still cannot find a clear, concise explanation of exactly what CAC's grading standards are nor how they guarantee those (unknown) standards. Literally thousands of posts on CAC have flowed through threads here and ATS - and still no explanation of what it takes to be A, B, C, or D quality - just an assumption that I, as a consumer, can just trust in an unspoken "standard" and just take the sticker at face value.

Be sure to let us know when you find the clear and concise explanation of NGC's grading standards.

CAC is a trading network backed with $25M in capital. Stickered coins are eligible for subsequently sight unseen bids from CAC and its member dealers.

see that it's not "all about the money".

Sadly, yes it is. It's a proven fact that if something is repeated 647 times on the internet, it becomes truth. We're up to 732, so truth it is!

I'd pay $10k for it and take my chances....