delta

Glad to see this ancient thread resurrected. My latest thought on the subject is that Mercanti mass-produced signature labels can actually reduce the value of a slabbed coin simply because of the perception of gullibility.  The idea is that either the seller or somebody along the line was conned into thinking there was added value to having the signature included.  Ultimately, when you try showing off your collection to a knowledgable numismatist, they will then scoff at you for having paid extra for an enclosed Mercanti signature, it will become an embarrassment, you can be shamed for possessing it.

... the questions have no probative value whatsoever ...

 

Well of course the questions I posed had no probative value, since they didn't consist of evidence in court proceedings. An absurd expectation for questions.

 

On the contrary I freely admitted they were leading questions. To hopefully lead anyone interested in the subject to delve into the implausible ramifications of their accusations.

 

So it is implausible that the United States would some day actually enforce its own laws as interpreted by federal appeals courts? If that is implausible, then this country has far more problems (legally) than just the HPA/18 USC 485-490 statutes.

In this situation, the technical details render DC's fantasy products outside the purview of those statutes, provisions, and precedents, as already very carefully explained by DC himself in a variety of postings.

Furthermore, the opinion of any particular lawyer or judge cannot be considered the final word in a case like this with differing interpretations. Decisions are frequently overturned, and panels of judges are often split.

... the questions have no probative value whatsoever ...

Well of course the questions I posed had no probative value, since they didn't consist of evidence in court proceedings. An absurd expectation for questions.

On the contrary I freely admitted they were leading questions. To hopefully lead anyone interested in the subject to delve into the implausible ramifications of their accusations.

All of the questions are ... designed to ... foment discourtesy.

The only discourtesy the questions so far have elicited is from you Mr.Mcknowitall.

And you're wrong. The questions were designed to try injecting a little levity into the discussion, as did one poster claiming that as judge he'd sentence DC to life without parole, and also to hopefully not keep flogging the same dead horse on this topic, as several posters previously complained about, plus I had an additional motive.

As a patron of and advocate for DC, I hoped the questions would help people realize it's almost inconceivable he will be indicted, and practically impossible he would then be convicted, and any punishment whatsoever would amount to a miscarriage of justice. The government can never realistically confiscate his past products. Furthermore, there is already a substantial aftermarket premium for Moonlight Mint fantasies, and the publicity for them being generated by the critics has increased interest in them.

Yet another question:

4. How will the aftermarket value of the DC fantasies be affected by a judgement they were made illegally?

Questions, please, for anyone who believes the Dan Carr fantasy pieces are counterfeit:

 

1. When do you predict Dan Carr will be indicted, what year, will it for example be 2017, 2020, 2025, 2050, or never?

 

2. If he's convicted, what punishment or penalties do you foresee? What do you think he really deserves?

 

3. Regarding the fantasy pieces already distributed, if declared counterfeit, do you think confiscation will be attempted by the government, and if so, under what terms?

 

Questions, please, for anyone who believes the Dan Carr fantasy pieces are counterfeit:

1. When do you predict Dan Carr will be indicted, what year, will it for example be 2017, 2020, 2025, 2050, or never?

2. If he's convicted, what punishment or penalties do you foresee? What do you think he really deserves?

3. Regarding the fantasy pieces already distributed, if declared counterfeit, do you think confiscation will be attempted by the government, and if so, under what terms?

Numismatics is clearly in decline, and among the reasons are the profusion of high quality counterfeits, as well as plenty of other scams, shady deals, misrepresentations, and chicanery, so almost every offer is treated as suspicious. The recent discovery of some nearly perfect counterfeits leads to the conclusion that with advancing technology, future fakes will be virtually undetectable, and some are probably already around. It's a downward spiral.

By contrast, Dan Carr's exonumia are a boost to numismatics, in their small way they are adding to the interest, popularity and collectibility of coins, and he should receive appreciation for his considerable efforts and craftsmanship.

Am very glad Dan Carr has so effectively demolished the complaints of both the skeptics and those with a vendetta against his creations. With so many shenanigans out there involving collectibles, his is a straightforward aboveboard operation.

With due respect to those with opposite opinions, I find various products of Dan Carr's Moonlight Mint to be highly desirable, my personal favorite is his fantasy token 1816 capped bust half, sold about five or six years ago. I'd like to hear from whoever wishes to dispose of one. As for the possibility of an unsuspecting wealthy novice collector being scammed, has there ever been a single example of that happening? Anyone with a reference such as a Redbook, or access to on-line information could hardly be victimized. Were any such scam to occur, probably it would make huge headlines.

I certainly agree with MBJ about the oversaturation of the autograph market forever when it comes to prolific signers such as Gerald Ford, and especially for John Mercanti who is barely a minor celebrity. And as can be judged by my previous comments, I'm not JM's biggest fan, although of course I do appreciate his numismatic career and contributions.

But MBJ has gone much too far in generalizing about coins and autographs when he claimed that combining them can provide no added value. In fact most valuable autographs are due to combinations of things, signed artifacts, for example letters with significant content, period photos, and sports memorabilia.

I can imagine a Mercanti slabbed coin deserving a decent premium under the right conditions, or, deserving no added value whatsoever under other conditions. As a case in point, please consider this current ebay auction for a year 2000 gold/platinum bimetallic Library of Congress commemorative coin:

ebay item 190843835995

It's in a brand new slab, in which a slip of paper with Mercanti's signature was enclosed. We can assume Mercanti never saw this individual coin, and PCGS merely used a signed slip from a pile they have waiting around. To me this deserves no premium whatsoever, as MBJ will surely agree. I'd negatively endorse this item, even if you're not bothered by the appearance of the bidding details.

However, if it had been slabbed and signed in 2000, before the onslaught of JM's mass produced autographs, and if we knew he had only signed a very few of them at the time, and that he had done so in person after examining the coins, maybe at some ceremony, there probably would be buyers who'd pay extra for it.

There is no added value to the coin for having a JM signature. To think there would be a premium is a bit naive, don't you think?

Coins are coins and autographs are autographs. Mix the two and you have nothing more than the sum of the two parts.JM's signature is not rare nor will it ever be rare. Not 500 years from now. Much like President Gerald Ford who signed thousands of signatures in his life, the supply will always be greater than the demand and that is why it is a novelty and nothing more. If I wanted to really marry the two entities together I would be looking for vintage signatures that are not common at all in the coin world. Of course, you would still be collecting two different things and one would not affect the value of the other.

This is an old thread but it interests me. Wait 25 or more years until Mercanti has passed from this life. What would a Morgan or Peace silver dollar be worth if the chief engraver had signed a piece of paper encased within a plastic capsule with the silver dollar? I would pay more for it.

It's not a comparable scenario. Mercanti has made a business of signing, getting paid for doing it in massive quantities. Those signatures for hire usually have little value, usually less than what was shelled out for them originally, although admittedly it's a fairly recent phenomenon to be paid money for your signature, going back maybe only about 50 years, in sports such as baseball, involving superstars like Joe Dimaggio.

Signatures for cash payments are often less desirable for reasons even beyond the rather unsavory circumstances, unsavory as far as I'm concerned, and also beyond just the oversaturation of the autograph market.

Hired signatures usually differ from that person's candid signature because consciously or unconsciously an attempt is made to render it more decipherable, and also a person's signature tends to change a little during prolonged sessions of signing.

Signatures gain value when there is an aspect of uniqueness to them, such as with a dedication to someone, a handwritten date, or any indication it was not mass produced. A Mercanti signature might be relatively valuable if you happened to have recognized him in the airport while waiting for a flight, and if he had uniquely signed and dated the COA of one of your mint sets, without getting from you anything more than a thank you and a smile.

I actually own one slabbed Mercanti signed coin, it's a 1999 one ounce proof platinum eagle, graded PCGS 70, in an older PCGS holder, contemporary with 1999. At the time I bought it, PCGS had graded fewer than 50 1999 proof Pt eagles as 70s, and the various others I have seen are unsigned. Probably there are only a few signed 70s. Furthermore, Mercanti was the designer for both sides of that coin, not just one side as with silver eagles. And Mercanti's 1999 Pt eagle reverse in my opinion is the best of all his coin art.

Just a note to highly recommend x2rider of New Zealand as a fine person to transact with.

We've all seen the name Mercanti in connection with the current active market in the 2011 American Silver Eagle 25th Anniversary set of 5 coins. I'd be interested in comments from NGC forum members about his signed coin labels, even though his signature apparently only appears on PCGS labels. In the meantime, I'll make a couple comments of my own.

I've seen no reason to doubt that Mercanti is a highly skilled coin engraver, recently retired from the US Mint. He's also been a prolific coin designer, but in that respect, there are some doubts about his excellence. His obverse of the American Platinum Eagles has been criticized for making Lady Liberty much too masculine. His reverse of the American Silver Eagles has been criticized for being unimaginative.

Still, whether or not you're especially pleased with any of his many coin designs, it might be nice to have his autograph on the label of a coin of which he designed at least one side.

I've seen American Platinum Eagles with his autographed labels, and of the ones I remember seeing, they usually commanded no premium, or at least they went unsold if a premium was required.

With the current craze for 2011 American Silver Eagles, the sets with Mercanti signed labels initially went for a substantial premium, but I noticed on ebay today that is no longer true, and they seem to be selling at a slight discount in regard to some other labels for the set. If Mercanti had signed the labels for only a strictly limited number of sets, say 100 sets, already meaning 500 signatures, probably the premium would still be there. However, he apparently signed far too many. He signed so many he may have gotten writer's cramp in the process.

Wasn't PCGS charging an extra $10 per Mercanti signed label? How much of that $10 went to Mercanti himself? Were all of the signed labels also First Strikes? Did he sign at the offices of PCGS, where they could watch to make sure it was him signing, or did he do them on his kitchen table at home, where maybe his wife did some of them, since she also signs his checks and credit card forms when she goes shopping at the mall? Couldn't they also have added another nuance, perhaps termed First Signatures, with a special higher premium label, for the first few weeks that Mercanti submitted to them the labels he signed, or for the labels done before any particular pen ran out of ink and had to be refilled?

The other news about Mercanti is that he has become a paid spokesperson for Goldline, the bullion company endorsed by Glenn Beck. Whether or not you are a fan of Glenn Beck's politics or showmanship, Goldline is probably not the best place to obtain your bullion, and they are on the spot nowadays, being charged with alleged numerous counts of deceptive marketing practices. Mercanti has not been charged, and is undoubtedly innocent of any wrongdoing, but it's not a connection to boast about.