disme

On 12/21/2022 at 5:36 PM, zadok said:

...Robert Julian was an excellent numismatic researcher, but hardly the first to research the archives...the archives were known by several researchers n accessed its just that many were there for their own research endeavors n not to publish their findings...i still have my Library of Congress n National Archives stacks access authorization card from the 1980s...n there were others there before me...most were interested in their own little niches of archival records n not broad spectrum....

Zadok is apparently unaware of those who used the archives in the earlier days. Walter Breen was the first, probably starting about 1951. Walter Thompson did limited research in the mid-1950s but this was cut short by his death in a fire. Don Taxay and I started about the same time, the late 1950s, and Ken Bressett was close behind, perhaps mid-1960s. 

On 12/21/2022 at 3:13 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Yeah, I saw postings by folks on other forums that they had Mint/Treasury investigators calling on their ex-wives, neighbors, co-workers, etc...for any dirt on them (them being folks who I believe were going to be called to testify or submit evidence on behalf of the Langbords).

Why would YOU be facing a lawsuit -- for uncovering evidence that was already made public ?  I never heard of that.  Who would be suing you, the Mint/Treasury or the defense people ?  Unreal......

I am not a lawyer but it seems weird that something mentioned in a trial could not be published after the fact.  Unless the (defense attorneys/Langbords) considered it "their property."

Glad I didn't go to law school....

The material I found was not published at that time as it was being kept for use in the planned trial. The trial was never held because both sides were nervous about the outcome, hence the settlement of January 2001. The dispute with the attorney came after the 2002 auction. I had no dealings, direct or indirect, with the later Langbord trials.

On 12/21/2022 at 10:38 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Awesome !!  Thanks, Disme ! 

Did it get any publicity when found in 1996 ?  Probably not, as the whole saga with the 1933 DEs hadn't started yet.

I was asked by one of the attorneys to do research on the 33 DE; this was just after the arrests and seizure of the coin. The letters I found were kept confidential and were to be used at the planned trial where I was to be a witness. The trial was announced in December 2000 for January 2001. I called the attorney to find out what was going on and was told that the trial was going ahead as planned and he would call me if there were any questions. I replied that it was obvious that a settlement was underway which was denied. A settlement was then announced just before the trial was to start with the claim that it was a last-minute arrangement. Prior to that the Mint had asked one of our mutual friends (Harry Forman) to find out what I knew so that it could counter my testimony; Harry called to tell me and he thought it was funny. After the auction I was told by one of the defense attorneys that I could not publish what I had found (the Froman letter, for example) as I might be facing a lawsuit. I published anyway, in the Numismatic News noted above. Because of this dispute I was not involved when the Langbords found the 10 extra pieces. 

On 12/20/2022 at 1:59 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Since you brought up research and the NNP....do you know if the original Louis Froman (Buffalo) letter asking about gold exchanges was saved and is in the NNP ?  I know it was referenced by Mint higher-ups in 1933.

I'm wondering if there were other exchange letters sent in to the 3 Mints or if that isn't something that would have been saved and thus on the NNP.  Might be too niche.

The 1933 Froman letter was discovered in the DC archives in March 1996. It was first published in Numismatic News, issue of October 1, 2002. 

A valuable addition to our knowledge of the United States Mint.

I somehow missed this topic earlier. The research work and published material done by Roger Burdette is outstanding. His set of three renaissance books, for example, is a masterpiece of research. 

Most of that article, and the December 1985 The Numismatist use the primary sources and then take a leap of conjecture.

Please explain “leap of conjecture.”

      For use as alloy in the gold and silver coinage.

     It may also be of interest to note that the half cents of 1825–1835 were all made from Boulton planchets. The 1831 half cents were from a shipment received in 1825. 

        In 1830 Mint Director Dr. Samuel Moore changed the way coinage was reported on a calendar-year basis. The annual report for 1830 to 1835 listed the coins struck during the year even if not formally delivered by the chief coiner. This did not affect the gold and silver coinage, which was promptly delivered but copper was another matter. The 1831 half cents were a test run of 2200 pieces using the new style of dies. Proofs were also struck. A large quantity of half cents were melted in 1833 and likely included most or all of the 1831 business strikes. This topic was discussed in the August 2014 issue of Coins Magazine.

A pleasure to scroll through these pictures.

A pleasure to go through. Thanks for posting.

54 minutes ago, coinman_23885 said:

It is very much relevant to his numismatic legacy.  A propensity for lying affects his credibility.  If he would lie about something important, he would have no reservation about fudging on something related to coins, especially given some of his more controversial attributions which so far have not been substantiated outside of Wally Breen's mind.

You mention “controversial attributions which so far have not been substantiated outside of Wally Breen’s mind.” Please name some of these controversial attributions. A half dozen would be nice.

7 hours ago, Conder101 said:

Something a lot of people don't consider is that although the encyclopedia was published in the 1980's, much of it was written in the 1950's.  Something gets written and then published after others have done another thirty years research, it's going to be seen as full of "errors".

 

From my understanding the first year was heavy on copper, but each subsequent issue is supposed to be heavy in a different area.

Not quite right. Some of the research was done in the 1950s but the actual writing was in the years immediately preceding publication. 

2 hours ago, physics-fan3.14 said:

Counterpoint: if Breen didn't know something, he would make it up. Numismatic research since his time has been a lot of "I know Breen said this, but this is what it really is...." 

At the time, I think that he may have done some good for the hobby. Today, however, much of his work has been replaced by actual research and facts. 

I have seen numerous reports that Breen made up material and that is true but to my knowledge only in very rare cases. Perhaps physics-fan3.14 will provide some examples. 

As to much of his work being replaced by “actual research” I think some examples are in order here as well. 

I knew Breen and worked with him on occasional projects from the early 60s. (And no, I did not approve of his other life.) He tried to be careful in his research but it was on a massive scale and errors were bound to occur when his notes got mixed up. This is equally true today.

I was on the Indiana committee to select the design and our choice was ignored.

We picked George Rogers Clark (carrying a gun over his head) wading through

the icy water to defeat the British at Vincennes. The Governor's representative

was at the meeting and when she saw the drawing in question exclaimed "But

he's carrying a gun!" We all knew that it was dead in the water after that.

The governor then picked a motif honoring racing but the rules said that private

firms could not be honored and that was exactly the case with the Indianapolis

Motor Speedway (the Indy 500). This inconvenient fact was pointed out to the

Mint but nothing happened.

It gets better. When the ceremony was held launching the new Indiana quarter,

the ceremony was held at the Motor Speedway with the Governor, the Speedway

owner, and Mint officials on the platform. The high school student who designed

the motif had to sit in the stands along with the committee.