Wondercoin

Nick: I understand your position. With the recent gradeflation that has occurred over the past few years, there are now upwards of a dozen MS68FB coins on the market at any given time and mostly all of them are going unsold at the current Price Guide prices. It is really a "cat and mouse" game. Of course, you would like to buy some of these coins for your incredible collection, but perhaps at only 1/3 of the current Price Guide. On the other hand, the dealers slabbing this material would like to get 2/3 (or higher) of the current Price Guide and some can "wait it out". Likewise, you can wait it out. There is a "standoff" right now.

I assume you believe if the Price Guide was corrected downward, this would result in dealers readjusting their prices downward and collectors like yourself and others stepping back into the "game" buying up coins at "the right levels". Hence, your position that would be better for the hobby and potential future Roosie collectors.

And, to some extent, you are 100% right. As coins keep getting slabbed in the pop top grades, dealers will let a few go unreserved and "real sales" will begin again. Just like I did with JHF's 1964-D here that established a "true" current value on the coin of $4,000 (not $10,000 as the PG had been showing and not $2,500 - $3,000 as you were valuing it). Of course, your figures were much closer to current reality than the PG turned out to be.

And, note that my MS68FB was not the only dime sold that day at no reserve. If I am not mistaken a 49-D sold as well - a pop 9 coin now that I was not impressed with, especially with its weak FB. Yet, (2) MS68FB coins did actually sell at this show and perhaps this is the beginning of things heading in the right direction now that you can use the $4,000 price point of the 64-D to show that most other pop 1 PCGS-MS68FB coins should only be worth about $4,000, give or take, despite the PG pricing.

You and I signed up here on this message board a long, long time ago and your post count is similar to mine. It is nice to "talk Roosies" with you here or ATS. You have assembled a World Class set of Roosies you should be very, very proud of. And, one day it will pay off and I will not be terribly surprised to hear that down the road you sold your collection and the buyer paid you $10,000 for this pop 1 and $10,000 for that pop 1 MS68FB coin. While you collect these dimes purely out of the love for the series, it will be a nice "perk" when and if that happens.

As always, just my two cents.

Wondercoin

Hard Times. Great story. I think I know who you are speaking of. In fact, if I am correct, he just wrote me to tell me he loved the look of the 64-D dime (and he also discussed with me the 69-D FS 5C at Stacks). He knows his stuff. He knows he will probably not see another 64-D dime nicer than this one until he is no long a "young man". .

Personally, my 1932-date Washington quarter collection in Mint State and 1936-64 in Proof - a set now closing in on 600 coins including all the varieties - is all I can handle as a true collector (besides my pattern Liberty 5C collection and Top 100 Moderns collection, which I am also doing). So, two "modern" and two "classic" sets that I have been going at for over (30) years (in the case of the classic silver quarters). If I could, I would have bought the 64-D dime for my personal collection, but, I gave up the love of the silver Roosies back in 2000 when I sold off my #1 Registry Set for good in order to concentrate on the quarters.

Based upon your report HT, clearly Nick can sleep easy tonight knowing that young man made an astute purchase

Wondercoin

Nick: I agree with RR - nice post.

I have no problem with your assessment of the coin as an MS67+FB (the same grade Mark Feld assigned). I personally think PCGS got it right at the half point higher grade, but "that's what makes a horse race". Many years ago, when this coin got priced at $10,000 over at PCGS, I firmly believe the PG editor got it right and the coin was a $10,000 "retail" coin. In fact, if memory serves me right, JHF started the bidding at $11,500 (w/BP) in 2009 at the Landmark Superior auction and while the coin did not sell at that auction at that reserve, I had an interested party in the dime, for slightly less, contact me after the sale to try to arrange a private treaty sale on the coin. Paul Song who ran the Superior Auctions at the time, gave me the interested party's contact information to deal directly with the collector (you know that wouldn't happen today, but Paul is quite the gentleman). While that collector did pick up a couple of JHF's unsold dimes, unfortunately, he passed away before the deal could be completed on the 64-D dime (which was on hold for him).

Again, at that time, 1912-S Liberty Nickels in MS66 grade were about $30,000 with a high Heritage sale of $37,000. But, unlike the 64-D dime in MS68FB, there were many additional sales of 1912-S nickels in MS66 over the past few years and the coins have drifted down to about a $4,000 current value (down roughly 80% or more off their high).

To this point, this 64-D dime makes an auction appearance (at a major auction) in this pop top grade only once or twice every decade. So, the time for the PG editor to adjust the price is now (I agree), but I personally think he got it right when he originally priced it.

There were 2 or 3 bidders willing to pay more than OnlyRoosies for this particular dime on this particular day. Quite frankly, I think the winning bidder did very well in winning the coin at the price he got it for. To be honest, I would have reserved the coin at around $4,000 - $4,250 hammer had we decided to place a reserve on the coin. But, no complaints, while this coin may have sold a little low, another coin in the sale that I consigned unreserved for JHF (I am in the process of selling off JHF's sensational USPI dupes) that I figured at around a $3,000 retail value sold for over $7,000. So, it all evens out.

As always, just my two cents.

Wondercoin

Thanks for the bid OnlyRoosies. I agree that the coin did just fine in this market. Heck, key date 1912-S Liberty Nickels that were selling at major auction for upwards of $37,000 in the finest known PCGS-MS66 grade about (4) years ago are trading today at the same $4,000 (or less) that this Roosie dime fetched at auction yesterday! Now that is something to think about.

Wondercoin

Yes, the coin fetched about $4,000 at Heritage this afternoon. Not too bad for this market. Congratulations to the winning (floor) bidder. I noticed there were at least (3) different bidders between $3,000 - $4,000 on the coin.

It will probably be some time before I, personally, ever see a 1964-D Silver Dime I like better than that coin. But, it may possibly happen.

Wondercoin

$2,200 plus BP with 1 1/2 days to go!

Wondercoin

$110 plus BP with 18 days to go!

Wondercoin

I am very happy Mark concluded in his professional opinion that the 64-D Dime graded MS67+FB. I highly value Mark's opinion. I believe the last Washington Quarter I asked Mark's opinion on (as I could not make it to the show) was an MS68 graded coin that I needed for my set and Mark graded the coin MS66! As Mark stated here, he "rarely" agrees with the MS68 assigned grade which is why I personally selected him to comment on this thread (giving him unfettered permission to say anything he wanted about the dime in question) and why I sent the dime off to Heritage for auction. I believe Mark is a "conservative" grader and that is nothing but a compliment. If I wanted someone to assist me with building a World Class personal collection, I would desire exactly that sort of coin grader in my corner.

I am glad Mark concluded the bands were full. As I said before, the bands in my opinion were fine.

In my opinion, the reason PCGS was comfortable grading this coin MS68FB back when it did was that the eye appeal and beauty of the obverse of the coin (that I believe is close to MS68+ quality) simply carried the day. You just don't see obverses of 1964-D Roosie Dimes that look as spectacular as the obverse of this coin. I personally have never seen another that I recall.

Finally, I continue to be impressed with my son Justin's coin photography. It keeps getting better every day. He had the privilege to train under Stacks #1 Coin Photographer last year and she really improved Justin's game. Thanks again BK for making that possible! For about a half year now, Justin has had his own business going on eBay ("monstercoinmart") where he accepts coin consignments, plans to deal routinely in monster toned and monster DCAM coins, and handles "hot" new Mint product offerings, while continuing to help me as well.

As always, just my 2 cents.

Wondercoin

"If Heritage acknowledges their existence, would you concede that their description is unbiased?"

Of course, I would "concede" that their description was unbiased with just about whatever they write.

Look... "reasonable men may differ". I may agree with PCGS that the coin is an MS68FB. Someone else might believe the coin is only MS67+FB quality (many of the MS68 slabbed quarters I routinely see I believe are only MS67+ quality). I have no problem with that. What I can say is that in my opinion those are likely the only two grade options an experienced grader looking at the coin would come up with. Any talk that the coin is an MS66 or even a low end MS67 (without bands) is "hogwash" I believe.

Starting tomorrow, I will be out of the country for the next several weeks so it may be more difficult for me to revisit this thread. But, when I can, I will.

As always, just my two cents.

Wondercoin

As the consignor (on behalf of the owner), I would like to see Heritage describe the coin as they would any other coin in the ordinary course of their business. No better, no worse. I personally hope Mark does not say anything to the person assigned to the task of describing the coin for the catalog. This way, we can all get an unbiased, impartial and typical auction description of the coin in line with every other description of every other coin in the sale.

That said, anyone wishing to ask Mark's personal opinion of the coin is certainly free to do so (and with my blessing as I mentioned earlier). Again, in the typical course of Mark's business as he would with any other coin in the sale. Mark should obviously know who is speaking with, etc, etc.

Just my 2 cents.

Wondercoin

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Very interesting discussion on the coin numbers. Thank you for that analysis.

Wondercoin

BRG ... I am not 100% understanding you.... are you saying coins like RD, RB and BN cents should all have the same coin number?

Wondercoin

nk1nk: I, too, would like to see all my PL coins pictured and housed in one place. And, it is a project of mine for the future to be sure. I also have a "monster toned" collection of Proof Ike Dollars (along with my son Justin) that needs to be pictured.

At the moment, I currently have -49- (personal) active registry sets at PCGS. From a collecting stand point, that takes my first priority (and nearly all my time). You can often see me responding to posts here at virtually any time of day, because it is not uncommon for me to sleep 4-6 hours a night and spend the other nearly 18 hours a day "playing with coins". Virtually all the annual upgrades to my sets are "homemade" so right now I will be very busy (for the next month) with 2016 Mint Sets, S mint business strike National Park coins, etc.

Sorry I will not be able to get the PL collection pictured and cataloged any time soon.

Wondercoin

Physics-fan: First, what is the name of the book you wrote? I'd love to order a copy from Amazon.

Regarding why PCGS did not adopt an across the board PL designation ... this is my personal opinion and not the official view of anyone at PCGS ...

THE COINS ARE TOO DARN RARE!

It would be a massive amount of time and effort to create special coin numbers for thousands upon thousands of coins and then have only one here and one there populated by a single coin or two over the next few years. For example, you mentioned in your personal set how silver Washington quarters or Roosies have a variety of "S" mint coins that can come PL on rare occasion. And, I agree, When I located a P or D mint coin from those series with amazing PL it usually made my month! PCGS would create thousands of P and D "PL" coin numbers and virtually none of the coins would ever get populated with a single coin! Hence, again, in my opinion, it was the pure dollars and cents that needed to be dedicated to such a project with very little return.

Wondercoin

BRG: While I appreciated PCGS putting on the holder the words Prooflike on the dimes, to be honest, I was disappointed with the outcome. In fact, I have considered cracking them out of the holders and just restoring them back to the Safeflips they were in for years before (to join all my other PL coins). When I looked at them last month in the PCGS holders it brought sadness to me, not happiness. Without a special coin number recognizing how very special the dimes are, the word Prooflike is totally insignificant. Anyone other than Mr. MaGoo (youngsters better google that reference) can plainly see they are amazing Prooflikes ().

That said, I appreciated the effort to at least try to do a little something when the final decision went 100% against what I was seeking for all collectors of this great genre of coin collecting. I have seen PCGS do "little gestures" for collectors many times in the past (just as I have no doubt NGC has as well). I would start to list them here (a few much "cooler" than mine), but, no doubt someone would "cry foul" so why bother.

MrKnowitAll... Thank you. You hit the nail on the head. When I speak of "dupes", they are often sensational quality. For example, I owned the pop 1 1932-P Quarter in PCGS-MS67 for years and then the pop 3/0 coin. One toned and one white (both pictured on Coinfacts). Even with the pop 2/0 coin selling for $40,000 at a Heritage auction, I couldn't decide which one of mine to sell off and just kept "the dupe" as well. The coin is pop 5 today (last I checked) and one last sold for about $25,000. No regrets on this end though.

"Ah, now you've really piqued my interest. It would be awesome if you could start a new thread and share this collection (or, link to a Registry set?"

Physics-fan - I really enjoyed looking at your registry set and your comments that went with it. Super set!

My PL coins are not as organized as yours. I would find one here and one there (over a 30+ year period) and place them, as they came in, in this safe deposit box or that one.

A couple years ago, I gathered up a handful of lovely PL Roosies and presented them to PCGS with the request that they consider adopting the PL standard for coin series beyond Morgan Dollars and a few other things (e.g. UHR's). They had the coins for a few months (and I was hopeful), but they decided at the time to not extend their PL designations. But, they did return my Roosies to me in PL designated holders, although without different coin numbers for the PL, so the designated holders were for my enjoyment only. I, too, wish PCGS would adopt the PL designation for all coin series, but then again, if they did, it might become tempting to slab some of my nicer coins and consider selling a few dupes. This way at least, there is no need to submit the coins and nothing gets sold.

I do have some spectacular 1971-S to 1974-S MS Silver Ikes in various degrees of PL (including some fairly deep examples). They were around in the 1980's with enough hunting. Less so today. It looks like you might be looking for an example for your set? If I find my group of them, I'll see if there is a nice dupe I can let go.

Wondercoin

The coin is now off ebay and will be in the hands of Mark the next time he sits at his desk in Dallas.

One thing I wanted to mention .... many here repeatedly commented about whether the dime was worth $10,000 or was graded properly for a $10,000 coin, etc. The number "$10,000" continued to come up. But, keep in mind, I had a "best offer" on the coin on ebay. So, obviously, I was prepared to accept less for the coin (and on top of that pay ebay and paypal fees).

Indeed, I received a serious offer tonight for the coin from a very astute Roosie buyer - a private (off-ebay) offer that I would have likely countered, but would have hoped to reach a mutual agreement on following further negotiations. Instead, I told the interested party that the dime had already been shipped to Mark for auction and I welcomed his bid for the dime at the auction.

I did want to make this point, because if and when the coin sells for less than $10,000 at auction, I can already see and hear the posts in my mind that may be written that say essentially "I told you the coin was not worth "$10,000". Again, my ebay ad listed an asking price of $9,995 with the request for interested parties to make me a counter-offer (i.e. best offer). I will truly let you know if I was pleased or not with the auction result when it is completed.

Wondercoin

"I still think the comparison is way off."

I guess we'll let the Roosie collectors determine if the comparison is "way off" or not. If my customer's dime fetches $300 or $400 in the no reserve auction, then perhaps the comparison was on point. If the coin fetches thousands upon thousands of dollars, then we know the comparison was, indeed, "way off".

Wondercoin

Good chance this thread will be "alive and well" 90 days from now as I pulled the coin from the bank this afternoon and I am preparing to send it to Mark for inclusion in the Heritage Summer ANA (Anaheim) auction. The coin will have no reserve and will sell for whatever Roosie dime collectors determine it is worth.

But, tonight I enjoy what could be perhaps my final evening with the special dime as I might never see it again.

Wondercoin

Anyone who asks me a question politely, I go out of my way to answer. And, I often spend my evenings and weekends doing exactly that, quite often under 2:00 a.m. or 3:00 a.m.

You can catch more flies with honey than vinegar.

Wondercoin

Next time, I will say the bands are fine. Period end. That is what I will do next time as I have done for 30 years.

I will speak plain English as usual, and so far no one interested in a dime has been the least bit confused by it in close to 30 years. That isn't to say, the next guy won't say "I personally think the bands are weak". At which point, I won't demand that he define "weak" as I will understand what he is trying to say. My only follow up will be "I assume then you are not interested in the dime"? At which point, he might say, "Can I have $1,500 off because of the weak bands"? And so on and so forth ....

Now if he says the bands are "Red" not "Red Brown", I may stop and ask him what in the heck he is talking about.

Wondercoin

Lehigh96... Once again, another thoughtful and interesting post.

Yes, I also thought that the plain English of "Bands are fine" meant exactly what it said as well.

But, to further amplify (for anyone who cares)...

You can have coins where you believe the bands are not "fine" and the FB designation has been awarded without justification (or, alternatively, not awarded but you believe they should have been because the bands are fine).

A significant number of Mint State Roosies are not "full band" coins (a designation by the way that myself and OnlyRoosies, if memory serves me right, pressed PCGS to adopt for a number of years until they finally did). Be careful what you wish for.

If one believes the grading service awarded "Full Bands" to a dime unjustifiably, then a simple statement that the bands are "not all there" is probably a simple comment to the point.

If it is an important date coin that rarely comes with FB, perhaps one might even assign a percentage of bands present, such as "90% Full Bands".

If a coin is "Full Band" it can be a "Full Band" coin with weak bands all the way to strong bands (i.e. across the spectrum of strength). If one believes the bands are exceptionally strong, a comment such as "the bands are strong" or the "bands are very strong" would convey that. If one thought the bands just "squeaked into FB" then one might say that the "bands are weak" or the bands are "very weak". This conveys that you believe the coin is indeed full band, but perhaps just barely.

When one says the bands are "fine" that signifies that the bands are full, but they are neither exceptionally strong nor exceptionally weak. They are simply "fine". Not great, not horrible. Anywhere from slightly below average to slightly above average.

This is the plain English I have used with Roosie collectors and dealers in discussing the series and the coins for over three decades now. Obviously, anyone interested in searching for "deeper meanings" might ask what words such as "not all there", "fine", "weak", "very weak", "strong", "very strong" really mean. And, of course, I might think bands are "fine" while the next guy thinks they are "Weak" or "Strong". As Lehigh said, it is just an opinion and in this case my personal opinion of "fine" is backed up by a professional grading service.

Lehigh ... send me your phone number .... if I don't post the story here one day, at a minimum, I want to tell it to you personally on the phone. It really shows the heart and character behind some of the pioneers on the registry game.

As always, just my 2 cents.

Wondercoin

Coinman ... You did not suggest you were leaving

Wondercoin

Bochiman ... Now, don't you go anywhere my friend!

Wondercoin