How many Different Grades Can One Coin Get From PCGS -pics-

[dragon]

Grading tags are not necessarily in chronological order, and in reality the coin itself is a nice no question 66PL any day of the week.

 

 

 

 

And here are 2 more coins from the same recent submission. Both were previous PCGS MS66's and the one on the right is actually a strong 66 and closer to MS67.

Interestingly, a pretty toned 1879-S that was a previous PCGS MS63 also came back an MS65 (bumped 2 points) in this submission, and a previous MS64DMPL came back bodybagged as cleaned this time???

 

[lkenefic]

is PCGS singlehandedly trying to nip gradeflation in the bud? ;hmmmm

 

seriously though... I think on any given day on any given coin grades can fluctuate dramatically. Your submissions only serve to proove this point.

 

L

[al_e_gator]

I was always told, don't buy a car made on Monday (workers recovering from the weekend) or Friday (workers thinking about the weekend).

 

I wonder if the same correlation applies to coin grading?

[Zoins]

I was always told, don't buy a car made on Monday (workers recovering from the weekend) or Friday (workers thinking about the weekend).

 

I wonder if the same correlation applies to coin grading?

Except the graders aren't assembling coins, they are assigning a grade. Maybe Monday and Fridays are better for getting high grades?

[dragon]

In fact, these grades were posted on a Monday morning

 

 

When I saw the grades for this submission posted online, my first reaction was to call Mastercard and dispute the grading fee charge due to gross incompetency

[jesbroken]

It would appear to me that we tend to put a little too much trust in TPG's and their abilities. I used to think of them as professionals but I believe they may be just retired people making good money for so-so decisions. Like our Congress.

Jes

[Hoot]

The coin looks like a solid VF to me.

 

 

Hoot

[gmarguli]

The coin looks like a solid VF to me.

 

 

Hoot

 

Damn EAC grading scale.

[Hoot]

The coin looks like a solid VF to me.

 

 

Hoot

 

Damn EAC grading scale.

 

 

 

Hoot

[coinman1794]

I've had similar results, and it's because of examples like this that I don't believe in gradeflation. That is, I think the graders miss by miles all the time, in both directions. And regardless of what anyone says, NGC is much more consistant.

[Zoins]

I've had similar results, and it's because of examples like this that I don't believe in gradeflation. That is, I think the graders miss by miles all the time, in both directions. And regardless of what anyone says, NGC is much more consistant.

Gradeflation is not dependent the TPG consistently grading high. All gradeflation needs from the TPGs is grading volatility (low or high) which is exactly what we see here. The other half of gradeflation is people only cracking out and resubmitting low graded coins. To me this indicates one necessary component of gradeflation really does exist. The other requirement is people in aggregate only cracking out low graded coins.

 

The dependency on collector/dealer/operator behavior may be similar to some situations where people claim few nice NGC coins because all those coins have been crossed to PCGS.

[lkenefic]

I've had similar results, and it's because of examples like this that I don't believe in gradeflation. That is, I think the graders miss by miles all the time, in both directions. And regardless of what anyone says, NGC is much more consistant.

Gradeflation is not dependent the TPG consistently grading high. All gradeflation needs is grading volatility (low or high) which is exactly what we see here. The other half of gradeflation is people only cracking out and resubmitting low graded coins. To me this indicates one necessary component of gradeflation really does exist. The other requirement is people in aggregate only cracking out low graded coins.

 

The dependency on collector/dealer/operator behavior may be similar to some situations where people claim few nice NGC coins because all those coins have been crossed to PCGS.

 

Exactly! Most dealers I know that sell slabs aren't going to crack out and resubmit a coin that's been overgraded. In this particular instance the difference between MS64PL and MS66PL is going to be close to $500...if you're buying the slab that is...

[DirtyGoldMan]

Regarding the first coin:

the coin itself is a nice no question 66PL any day of the week.

 

If that is the case, why was it resubmitted (twice)?

[just-john]

My 2 cents on this would be. I have recieved higher grades very early in the month say first 3 to 4 days or the end of the month last 1 to 4 days

[dragon]

<<< If that is the case, why was it resubmitted (twice)? >>>

 

 

 

I frequently crack coins out to put into sets in Capital holders, or for just no reason at all sometimes. I really don't care how they graded it, just think it's amusing how they could be all over the map and be so consistently wrong on a simple coin like that.

[SLQS-migration]

With Pcgs Its Who or What Company Sends Them In! THERES A COMPANY IN DALLAS THAT I FEEL OWNS THEM IN MY 2 CENTS! JUST JOINED NGC FOR THAT REASON PLUS A SLQS I GOT BACK! AND SOME UNDERGRADED PCGS SLAB IN 65 I BROKE OUT! WHEN NGC 1ST STARTED I DIDNT AGREE WITH ALOT OF THE FH ! IF YOU HAVE REALLY RARE COIN ONLY HAVE A VERY LARGE COIN COMPANY SEND IT IN TO PCGS! MY 2 CENT SORRY IM MAD AT THE PCGS I GOT IN !

[Mirrored Morgan]

And here are 2 more coins from the same recent submission. Both were previous PCGS MS66's and the one on the right is actually a strong 66 and closer to MS67.

Interestingly, a pretty toned 1879-S that was a previous PCGS MS63 also came back an MS65 (bumped 2 points) in this submission, and a previous MS64DMPL came back bodybagged as cleaned this time???

 

Maybe PCGS is again changing the way they grade PL and DMPL Morgans. Trying to get a MS67 grade these days from PCGS seems to be much harder than it use to.

 

Laura from Legend needs to shut her mouth up about how the top two TPG's are over grading coins.

[coinman1794]

Laura from Legend needs to shut her mouth up about how the top two TPG's are over grading coins

 

No, there are plenty of overgraded coins too.

[okbustchaser]

And here are 2 more coins from the same recent submission. Both were previous PCGS MS66's and the one on the right is actually a strong 66 and closer to MS67.

Interestingly, a pretty toned 1879-S that was a previous PCGS MS63 also came back an MS65 (bumped 2 points) in this submission, and a previous MS64DMPL came back bodybagged as cleaned this time???

 

Maybe PCGS is again changing the way they grade PL and DMPL Morgans. Trying to get a MS67 grade these days from PCGS seems to be much harder than it use to.

 

Laura from Legend needs to shut her mouth up about how the top two TPG's are over grading coins.

 

Just because you are having a problem getting a coin into a 66 holder now--even if it is clearly superior to another coin already in a (or it itself was in a) 66 holder does not necessasarily mean that PCGS is under-grading your coin now. It could just as easily--and based on most coin I see MOST LIKELY DOES--mean that they earlier OVER-GRADED the coin you are comparing it with.

[WoodenJefferson]

Adams-Carter Class III dollar, graded "extremely fine" by Eric P. Newman and Kenneth E. Bressett, "EF, cleaned" by Walter Breen, "EF-45, cleaned" by Q. David Bowers, Proof-45 by PCGS, Proof-50 by NGC, and most recently Proof-58 by PCGS

 

The Adams-Carter coin is currently graded Proof-58 by PCGS, but in the past it was graded Proof-50 by NGC and before that Proof-45 by PCGS. To PCGS's own graders, the coin improved an astonishing 13 points in quality over time. PCGS contended that it graded the coin as it most recently did because previous graders didn't account for its weak strike. But Q. David Bowers, Walter Breen, and Eric P. Newman and Kenneth E. Bressett had all graded it extremely fine as well. A considerably more likely explanation is that this coin is just another example of how the grading "standards" of the grading services are anything but consistent over time and how they treat rare coins or coins with provenance more leniently than other coins.

 

 

The Adams-Carter specimen, graded Proof-58 by PCGS, sold in August 2003 for $1.2 million through Bowers and Merena. The same coin sold just two years earlier for $874,000. Reportedly, during the time the Carter family owned the coin, from 1950 to 1984, Amon Carter Jr. occasionally carried it unprotected in his pocket, which caused the wear.

 

The preceeding is not my opinion...taken from the internet, I do not remember the source, but it does show inconsistancy ATS. Also, I can't believe one of the previous owners carried this coin as a pocket piece!

[MikeInFL]

The preceeding is not my opinion...taken from the internet, I do not remember the source, but it does show inconsistancy ATS. Also, I can't believe one of the previous owners carried this coin as a pocket piece!

 

With all due respect, the example you site says nothing about consistency and a lot about gradeflation -- two very different yet alarming subjects....Mike

[WoodenJefferson]

 

With all due respect, the example you site says nothing about consistency and a lot about gradeflation -- two very different yet alarming subjects....Mike

 

Hey Mike, doesn’t grading consistency and gradeflation run parallel to one another at times, only separating when the actual history of the grades/sales can be compared?

 

Just a thought.

[gmarguli]

I think we've all overlooked one possibility. Dragon keeps damaging the coin when he takes it out of the slab. First an MS66 which he damages slightly to MS65. Then some more damage on the next crackout down to MS64. By the time he is done cracking this coin out, it'll be bodybagged for damage!

 

[TomB]

Well, the certificates might not be in chronological order, but it is obvious from the certificate styles that the first two times the coin was submitted that it came back as MS66PL because the barcode is not on the front of the insert for these two grades. It may also be likely that the third submission was the third certificate since this certificate has the "S$1" notation in the upper right corner whereas the newer certificate has gone to the "$1" style. If this is true, then the certificates are in order of submission.

 

There is the possibility of the coin being damaged slightly over time with the cumulative effects of removal, but it is also just as likely that what you are seeing is normal variance for such a subjective rating as a grade given a single coin, over time and possibly from different graders.

[coinman1794]

Not knowing the history of this coin, my first impression from the picture was that this is a softly struck AU55-58. So, it does not surprise me after reading this thread that this coin now grades AU58 with the explanation that the previous graders did not account for the striking weakness on previous gradings. That makes perfect sense if you just look at the coin, but also, when you realize that graders often don't make the proper distinction between strike and wear at the grading services. And, I just recently complained about that in another thread. It's a constant problem.

 

With all that said, this coin is supposedly cleaned, which means they should have been a little harder on it, even if it is a major rarity. Also, you have to be careful when grading cleaned Bust coinage because, once you abraisively clean a circulated coin, often the dullness of the worn high-points is removed, often making the loss of detail from wear appear to be a weak strike, instead. If that is the case here, this very well may be an XF coin with old, polished up wear being mistaken for weak strike. I'd have to see it, and the chances of that are slim

[CarolinaCollector]

Thanks for pointing out that grading is an art and not a science. My NGC experience has been more consistent, but it's similar...

 

Based on what I have heard ATS, it's nice to know that every single 1880-S grade is correct.

[just-john]

Amon Carter Jr. occasionally carried it unprotected in his pocket, man I would love to be able to look under that guy cushions in his livingroom