PCGS submissions result in net gain

[EZ_E]

I had 8 free PCGS submissions with the following results:

 

1861 S$1 PCGS XF45

I originally bought this coin in an NTC holder graded AU 53 from Sunshine Rarities in Oct. 2002 for $1027. Although it has strong AU details, rim disturbances net graded it @ XF 45. According to Michael L.'s research, this is an extremely rare piece with great potential. He feels that since it has a thick-skinned original finish with great lustre that it would easily bring $1500. PCGS lists it at $1175.

 

1915 S G$1 Pan-Pac commemorative PCGS MS63

This coin was won in the Nov. 2002 Bowers & Merena auction for $370 + 15%. It was advertised as ms 63 raw. PCGS lists it at $675.

 

1925 D G$2 1/2 Indian PCGS AU55

This coin was advertised as brilliant uncirculated by Coast to Coast and sold for $169 in May 2003. Although the coin was misrepresented since it was just a slider, I still made a net gain. PCGS lists it for $210.

 

2002 W G$5 Salt Lake Olympics PCGS MS69

This coin was purchased from the mint last year for $205. CameoCC sells the identical coin for $375.

 

2002 W G$5 Salt Lake Olympics PCGS PR69DC

This was also purchased from the mint last year as a two coin set (included the S$1 proof commem.) for $245. CameoCC lists it for $245.

 

2002 Statue of Liberty Platinum $50 PCGS PR69DC

I bought this last year from the mint for $405. PCGS lists this coin @ $675.

 

2000 G$5 Bullion PCGS MS68

Now, promise not to laugh! I bought this coin from the Coin Vault in the year 2000 for either $39 or $69 (I can't remember) before I started collecting coins again and when I was still steeped in ignorance. It lists for $50.

 

1908 No Motto G$20 St. Gaudins PCGS Cleaned/no grade

Once again, I bought this from the Coin Vault in 2000 for $499.95. It was advertised as uncirculated. So, both Coin Vault purchases resulted in a net loss.

 

Overall, I was very pleased with the results. Since this was my first submission ever, it was an educational experience as well.

 

Lessons learned: 1) With luck and/or skill, one can profit from our hobby (although I don't plan on selling anytime soon). 2) Charlie, "OldTrader", has often commented that one should never buy gold coins raw. My experience pretty much reinforces this mantra with the exception of coins purchased directly from the US Mint. 3) The mint state gold commemoratives from the mint has a much greater chance to appreciate than their proof counterparts.

 

Turn around time was just under two months.

 

Sincerely,

 

[bigd5]

Seems like you did ok with your submissions. There are a couple of things to remember. The PCGS price guide isn't very accurate, and just beacause ABC dealer is advertising a certain item at a certain price, doesn't make that advertised price the market price.

Consider your '25-d $2.5. That coin will sell for considerably less than the advertised PCGS guide figure. I can't comment directly on the modern commem's as I don't deal with those.

The best way to ascertain current market value is to do price history searches at Heritage, Ebay, Teletrade etc. and try to form a consensus for what certain issues are selling for, as opposed to listed price guide figures, or sellers listing prices. Better yet, attend (if possible!) a local show and get opinions to value from dealers at the show. That can be tricky at times, but doable.

As for the seated dollar, I would love to see a pic. Sounds like a very nice coin, especially with Michael's vote of approval!

[EZ_E]

Thanks for the feedback!

 

Unfortunately, I am not able to post any pictures since I'm don't have the equipment to do so. To bad, so sad.

[CarlWohlforth]

BigD5 is saying something important. Just because PCGS or a dealer lists a coin for a certain price does not mean you can sell your coin for that price. You will likely get offered much less if you actually go to sell those coins.

 

BTW I too bought one of those "BU" Indians from Coast to Coast. It too was AU. I wasn't happy about that

[EZ_E]

Carl,

 

I have absolutely no desire to sell any of my coins. Most of my coins are an accumulation but I do have complete collections of Mercs, Walkers, modern half dollar commemoratives (NGC PR69 ultra cameo), ASE (NGC high grades), etc. Filling my Dansco type album is a high priorty for me right now. Of course, It won't be finished overnight since I'm working on higher grades.

 

Prices realized on coins certainly depend upon marketing, to whom you sell them, grade, demand, scarcity and presentation. Sure, there's no price ceiling for coins, but, as stated, having a knowledge of current market values will help protect one's assets.

 

Now that I am gaining in knowledge, I'm tickled that I am at least making better buys. Considering how many times that I've been burned by these squirrelly coin shops advertising in all of the numismatic publications, I'm happy to be making wiser purchases.

 

As you stated, Carl, you weren't too happy about getting a product that was not as advertised. It's human nature to get pissed when one gets ripped off! And, as we all know, there are plenty of individuals out there who are more than willing to do so.

 

I'm definitely sharper and wiser now than I was a couple of years ago. I owe alot to Michael for unbiasedly educating me in the numismatic industry. A love for collecting won't take you around the block without the knowledge to go with it! As scripures state: Be as gentle as a dove but as wise as a serpent.

 

My motivation for posting this thread was to share my joy with other collectors because of a few decent buys, to show the price contrast of raw vs. slabbed coins, to shed light on some of the hypocritical grading practices of some dealers and to post a thread about actual coins instead of the shortcomings of some well-known industry leaders.

 

Anyway, thanks for the feedback, guys! I am always open for it: good or bad.

 

 

[jtryka]

Seems like a pretty good result overall, though I would add to Charlie's comments and say that you should never buy gold coins raw sight unseen under and circumstances, and if you buy them sight seen, wait until you've had some experience. It took me several years of buying certified gold, and some hard lessons before I was able to buy raw gold without getting burned. Even then, I still can't grade an Indian half or quarter eagle to save my life, so for the Ugly Indian gold (just my opinion, I know there are many fans of BLP's design), I still don't buy raw (except if I want to put it in jewelry!).

 

PS-Are those 2002 Olymic gold coins worth anything? I bought an unc set from the mint last year because Coin World kept harping on about how low the mintage was.

[CarlWohlforth]

It sounds like you have a neat collection Victor. I am tickled to hear you are doing better than before.

 

I can't grade those gold Indians either! But I do like the design

[gmarguli]

Prices realized on coins certainly depend upon marketing, to whom you sell them, grade, demand, scarcity and presentation. Sure, there's no price ceiling for coins, but, as stated, having a knowledge of current market values will help protect one's assets.

 

It can't be stated enough, do not go by the PCGS price guide. It is a joke. It's got modern coins listed for a few dollars that you couldn't touch for 100X that much and it's got classic coins listed well above market. The people who set these prices are the same dealers that want to sell you their coins and some are just clueless. If you MUST use this guide, knock 30% off on average for the classic coins and understand that the modern coins are totally out of whack.

 

Invest $14 into a set of the current Greysheets. You'll get a much better, but not perfect, idea of what coins are worth before you buy them. The people who set these prices don't deal in US coins.

[keithdagen]

On the commem and bullion values, the best resource is E-Bay price history or Teletrade auctions. You'll find that in many cases, coins will sell for 50 to 75% of the advertised prices of national dealers.

[michael]

 

hi there victor now on that 1861 i will just add that the coin is PROOFLIKE! CONSIDERING its mintage well i am not surprised with a really nice thick original skin medium toned man it is a thick skin but that prooflike lustre shows off the coin really rare totally original like that

and even with this medium to dark skin

 

the eye appeal is superb

 

to me on the reverse the coin is a super nice really super nice au the obverse is a nice au

 

for me the coin is a really nice high end au i mean really nice but net graded as for some slight edge distrubances

which all in all many would not be bothered by

 

but pcgs is really very strick and they did not mind the coin also has tremendous eye appeal this coin is really a raRE COIN

 

 

for me it is a retail 1700 coin a steal at 1500 just from its looks and surface quality you have to throw out the price guides on a coin like this the way it looks

 

totally original and an 1861!!!!!

coin is really rare as such

 

an undipped original coin with a thick skin and strong prooflike surfaces underneath this skin which is alive with lustre

 

and an 1861 to boot how many of a coin that is like this totally original never dipped or played with nice au

 

will you see like thi in 5 years of looking going to every show

 

none to one maybe!

 

michael

[michael]

this coin was sold for 1000 as tehy saw it was in an ntc holder and also that it had thic thick meduim original skin to it and did not understand the coin as they had never seen something like this so they thought

 

hmmmmmmmmmmm not bright dipped scrubbed white so there must be something wrong with it..........

 

and that is totally from the truth it is a really rare coinwith the way it looks totally original

 

and an 1861 to boot one of the rarest dates in business strike in the series in this grade

[bigd5]

Michael,

If I translate all of that correctly, the 1861 is a really nice coin?

 

[braddick]

You're having fun and there is no pricetag on that.

Overall, good job. Neat mix of coins.

[michael]

a grreat coin that 1861! and also victor is having fun!

 

i love it

 

sincerely michael

[jom]

1925 D G$2 1/2 Indian PCGS AU55

This coin was advertised as brilliant uncirculated by Coast to Coast and sold for $169 in May 2003. Although the coin was misrepresented since it was just a slider, I still made a net gain. PCGS lists it for $210.

 

Aren't those the clowns that have been advertising their [!@#%^&^] in Coin World for years now? "BU" such and such for greater than AU price but less than real BU money? Figures.

 

Also, is Coin Vault those crooks on Shop at Home or whatever? I'm surprised ANYONE who visits these coin message boards actually buys from those people.....

 

 

so for the Ugly Indian gold (just my opinion, I know there are many fans of BLP's design)

 

Watch it, bub!

 

 

jom

[Oldtrader3]

Victor: Your learning about coins, and grading, plus, it hasn't cost you a lot of money. Way to go! The inclused $2-1/2 & $5 Pratt designs are really hard to grade. Even the better MS grades have some marks in the field, on the cheek and shoulder. I have been grading/collecting them since 1967 and still have doubts on grade sometimes.

 

It is extremely tricky for most collectors to tell an AU-slider from a lower grade MS Indian. That is why so many dealers get away with selling Sliders as MS coins.

[EZ_E]

Well, I received my submissions in the mail yesterday. Cool! Michael, with the "shiny, new holder", the proof like qualities and luster aren't as visible as before on the 1861 dollar. The rim disturbances are barely noticeable in the slab, however. Still, it's a shame to have an XF grade assigned to such a nice coin. Still, I'm happy that they graded it.

 

Bigd5, Carl & Greg, I didn't know that PCGS's price guide was so whacked! They claim that it is continually updated. Maybe they collaborate with the professionals at ACG to come up with the prices.

 

Jryka, do you have an idea of the total mintage of the uncirculated Salt Lake coin? I just saw a listing today that was 50 bucks under CameoCC's $375 price tag. Well, as Keith stated, they'll often bring substantial discount on e-bay or auctions. I got my 1999 gold Washington commem from an auction much cheaper than many dealers offer it for.

 

I subscribed to the grey and blue sheets for 3 months. They were useful to an extent but basically, for me, they tended to accumulate like junk mail. And, often times, the listing that I desired was not in the current mailing so I'd have to search back issues to find it. As a result, I let my subscription lapse. And, to their credit, they aren't soliciting me big time to re-subscibe.

 

You all aren't kidding about grading gold. Especially those darn Indians. Has me baffled. I was bummed that my saint was body-bagged. Looking over it again yesterday, I can see what they mean but it is still very subtle for me. I didn't notice any hairlines, just a somewhat shinier finish.)

 

By the way, Jom, I agree with you that 99% of all offers on the Coin Vault should be avoided. Occasionally, they'll offer a decent deal. (i.e. I got my Statue of Liberty gold commem [NGC MS69] from them for $150). That's not a great bargain but it is a fair price. However, if you'll recall, I bought them before I knew better. I had always wanted a $20 gold piece since I was a kid coin collector, so, when I saw the coin offered while I was flipping through the channels, I decided to jump on it. Besides, I was finally making decent money so I could afford it. Now, the same coin sells for $650 on the same network. What a rip!!! A great thread that ran a little while back was dealer and collector nightmares. What I remember most from it is to avoid slabbed bullion coins for an investment. I bought the entire 2002 slabbed set from shop at home. I'm sure that I'm a few hundred dollars in the hole from this "investment". However, I have no regrets for puchasing the 2002 gold and platinum proof sets directly from the mint. Notice that the gold proofs are a hundred bucks higher this year due to the precious metal market. I can only imagine how much the platinum sets will increase. I bet by at least $200.

 

Braddick, as you stated, there is no price on fun. . How true! Coin collecting is fun! I love the hobby, but, when one gets taken advantage of because of his/her lack of knowledge, it definitely dampers the joy-effect. That's why I love this forum: not only is it educational but there is also a comraderie formed among collectors. From my heart, thanks to all of the posters and to NGC for hosting this forum!

 

Jom, speaking of Coast to Coast (and the Coin Depot)....They both almost soured me to the hobby! I was psyched to work on a complete set of uncirculated Walkers. I know that it would be a large undertaking, but I was going to do it. What disillusioned me was all of the frickin' sliders that I was getting so I just gave up. Which reminds me of a question that I have concerning the vertical skirt lines on Miss Liberty's left leg: Should the lines always be visible on an uncirculated coin or will a weak strike make it look like wear in this area?

 

Thanks for your input, Charlie. I will only buy classic gold certified from now on.

 

Well, gotta get my chores done. Hasta luego, amigos, tengo que irme.

[jtryka]

Victor,

 

I am sure glad you are having fun! As for the Saint, I have a few words of encouragement, it happens to the best of us, so don't feel too bad! About 2 years ago, I bought a set of 1914-D & S Saints, and they looked very good to me, I thought solid MS-62, maybe a 63, and they were both bodybagged for cleaning! It happens to the best of us sometimes, even though we have experience.

 

As for the Coin Vault and Saints, I could usually tell from the guy handing the coin that they were cleaned and/or whizzed coins, though for someone unfamiliar with them it would be hard to tell. I remember in 2000 and 2001, the Coin Vault was selling raw "BU" Saints for $500 or so, and they were all common date coins that looked lackluster at best, and at the exact same time, I was routinely buying certified 14-S and 15-S Saints in MS-63 for under $400! Oh for the days of $270 gold again! I think they come with a guarantee don't they? Maybe you could return it and use the money for a nice Saint that wasn't cleaned. If not, it's still a nice coin, and since it's not slabbed, you can enjoy it in all it's glory (my biggest problem with slabbed Saints is that you can't see the edge! And that's an important part of this design! I guess my best advice to you if you choose to buy a certified Saint is to buy a better date coin in MS-63 or higher. Too many people just assume that somewhat better dates are out of their price range. Certainly this might be true for the branch mint coins of the 1920s, or the keys like the 09-D, 08-S, or 13-S, but often you can buy a nice MS-63 1915-S for not much more than a common date 1908 NM, 1924, 1927 or 1928. Certainly, I think for the long term, you're a lot better off with the slightly better date than the most common. (PS-I picked the 15-S as the example because they can be just gorgeous in MS-63). So continue learning, and most of all keep having fun!

[EZ_E]

RE: I remember in 2000 and 2001, the Coin Vault was selling raw "BU" Saints for $500 or so, and they were all common date coins that looked lackluster at best, and at the exact same time, I was routinely buying certified 14-S and 15-S Saints in MS-63 for under $400!

 

Well, slap me and call me Susan! If I only knew then what I know now... As I mentioned, they're selling them for $650 now. Pretty incredible, isn't it?

 

Thanks for the encouragement!

 

I think I'll take my daughter to Vancouver, Canada this weekend. Talk to you'all Sunday night graves.

[jtryka]

Well, at least their pricing pattern is consistent. I just checked Heritage's website for reference, and in inventory right now you can buy the following certified in MS-63:

 

1908 NM $525

1909-S $645

1910 $590

1911-S $600

1922, 1924, 1925, 1926, 1927 and 1928 for $525

 

All priced less than the "BU" raw coins on HSN! Notice that the better dates are often less than $100 more!

 

 

 

[jom]

Which reminds me of a question that I have concerning the vertical skirt lines on Miss Liberty's left leg: Should the lines always be visible on an uncirculated coin or will a weak strike make it look like wear in this area?

 

That is a good question. Maybe a Walker expert can chime in but I'll give it a shot. The skirt lines, as far as I know, are not on the high point of the coin in the area that the wear shows up at first.

 

Wear: For the Walker I'd look at the breast area of Liberty on the obverse and the eagle's wing on the reverse.

 

Strike: This differs with the dates. The earlier dates have skirt line problems whereas the late dates tend to get weak in Liberty's hand and the eagles front leg. Although, the Liberty hand problem is seen with the early dates also.

 

I'd suggest buying the Walker book by Bruce Fox.

 

It seems you are relatively new to (or returning) the hobby. So what I always suggest is to LOOK at as many coins as possible before buying anything. Go to auction lot viewings and look at all the slabbed material for the series you like. It's free to look! Eventually, you'll get the idea of how they are graded. ONLY buy raw material after you've been doing this a LONG time. Possibly, 5 years or more.

 

You are relatively safe buying modern proofs and all. Most of them are > MS67 anyway. It's only the price you have to be careful with.

 

jom

[Dog97]

That was interesting! The best way to get a handle on grading is by rolling your sleeves up and jumping in there and buying material from all sorts of dealers and making submissions to grading companies.You soon get an idea on what's what. Of course others will flame you for buying certian brand slabs and/or from certian dealers but the best way is just to find out for yourself if you are seeking knowlege & education is jump in there & do it.

[MAULUMALL]

I agree with DOG here.

But remember that it's your hobby.

If you don't get flamed your not really giving Your opinion.Someone is going to dissagree with you.

Who Knows ......He may be right.

 

 

[robertpr-migration]

I don't know so much that the lesson is not to buy raw gold, as much as that the lesson is not to buy anything from the coin vault. Those guys are hucksters! And perhaps they don't even know any better, but they at the very least are guilty of purchasing their material from poor sources, not checking it, and jacking up the prices very high. Stay away, stay far far away!