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14 posts in this topic

Hi all, I really get tired of getting drilled for not buying PGCS coins.


I had no less than 3 dealers give me grief for buying an 1936-d lincoln in ngc ms68. oh yea I payed big bucks for it.



here's what one dealer said.


(rob, what are you doing buying ngc coins)


this is what I said. 893naughty-thumb.gif


well zxv , I know you think PCGS is the stuff. I still think there coins are over priced because the newps to coin collecting simply think they can just buy any pcgs coin and be safe.


most of the time this is true but there still paying a premium. I believe the NGC coins are under valued compared to pcgs. and I will always send a coin back if it isn't nice. I have coins in all holders that might grade anywere.


the heritage auction has a nice PCGS 1934-p ms68 lincoln for 5500$ right now. my 34-P IS NICER one look at the pics on the heritage site and I could tell. mine cost me 2500$. so tell me how I might get hurt on the price of the coin.


I still only buy the coin for the coin.


thanx, rob.


I still think buy the coin for the coin, ngc and pcgs both have there drawbacks and there good points. but while pcgs thinks they have to under grade everything we need to compare other coins in other holders to see if were getting our money's worth. rantpost.gif



and one last thing. can anyone think of a good reason why anyone would give me grief for buying anything? smile.gif



love, rob.


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I think the thread title of ARE NGC COINS WORTH PCGS PRICES? is misleading. NGC & PCGS don't make coins. They offer an opinion on the numerical grade of the coin.


If someone wants to spend more on a PCGS coin because it is in a PCGS slab, then let them. I'm sure their guarantee will protect all buyers. Hey, Mark Feld, how's it going getting that refund from PCGS for their grading mistake? shocked.gif


I'll buy a coin in any slab or (gasp) raw! There are horrifically graded coins in both slabs. Personally, if I were a novice I think I'd buy NGC coins. They've shown more consistency and if you don't know how to grade the best thing you can do is buy a coin that is most likely going to be that of which the slabbed grade says. If you buy PCGS you might get a coin from their loose period, yet pay a premium as if the coin was graded during one of their strict periods.


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Anyone who pays a premium for one slab over another sight unseen is missing a few brain cells.


Now granted, if I am looking for X coin in say MS-65 and I see a listing for pone from each grading company without seeing the coins, I'm going to choose either the PCGS or the NGC coin (assuming that all are priced the same and most likely the cheaper of the two if not), HOWEVER, on a sight-seen basis, who slabbed the coin doesn't matter as much as "Does the coin fit the grade?". If the answer is yes or the coin looks better than average, then I'll pay for the quality, no questions asked.


Now if there are two coins (same type and date) of the same grade/quality, one in PCGS and one in NGC and the dealer wants 10-20% more for the PCGS slab, I'm going to go with the NGC every time.


So let people think that PCGS plastic equals an automatic premium... snag what bargains you can from those people and pass on the overpriced items.

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NGC & PCGS don't make coins


Thanks god someone said this....I'm tired of repeating that over and over and over.



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Should we take this opportunity to address the subject of dealers that "owe" an obligation to PCGS? Do you think that some of these dealers have a vested interest in promoting the PCGS slab and chastising customers that purchase coins in other services' holders? It can become a self-fulfilling prophesy. Enough people, dealers, in the hobby promoting the PCGS holder as superior to all others and eventually enough buyers, collectors actually begin to "buy into" it. But how could PCGS obtain the loyalty? A favor coin here and a couple of favor coins there can buy some initial loyalty. Then dealers begin to realize higher premiums for their PCGS coins, than they do from coins certified by other services. That can buy some additional loyalty. And on and on.


Yet, some collectors continue to say the identity of a coin(s) submitter is unknown to the graders. If that is so, then why would true long-term professionals of the hobby, like those that founded ICG decide to spend all the additional money, processes and time to utilize a 3rd-party public accounting firm to act as an intermediary for the submissions? WHY would they feel it so important to assure that no one in ICG has knowledge of the identity of the submitter? Why would they want to be sure the graders don't know how many coins the collector has submitted in the past??


The easy answer is that their time in the hobby and grading coins at PCGS had shown them that the identity of the submitter and/or their past submission level(volumn), is actually known by those in PCGS.

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well for me a short answer yes yes yes some of the time it all depends on what the coin looks like sight seen in person in hand


i think there is one slabbing company (((i will call them AAA))) that does command a greater premium for their coins and for the most part rightly so because of the other service (((i will call them BBB))) has many coins in their holders that are just not all there for the grade on the holder and they are still as such overvalueing coins that are submitted to them in their holders!!


and this keeps all the great and/or monster coins in BBB holders at a lower market price because of all the maxed out coins in their holders


even though BBB has sometimes really great and/or monster coins equal to and sometimes better than the same AAA counterpart


so the BBB coins most of the time not all of the time but most of the time sell for less than the AAA counterparts


and sometimes the AAA coins are also not all there as per the grade designations on the holder but NOT as much as the BBB service WITHIN MY AREA OF SPECIALIZATION



so in a nutshell you have to buy the coin not the holder and i would rather have the greater and/or monster coin in the BBB holder as it is cheaper than if it was in the AAA holder


i think these coins are the coins to buy! yes yes


i think as the market progresses this difference will start to change AAA and BBB slabbing services will get closer in price but i think it might take longer as i still see many many BBB slabbed coins still being graded and overvalued by the BBB service!


again just make sure you buy the coin not the holder and you will be okie!


so i guess again and again in the end when all is said and done you have to




and if a monster and/or great coin in a BBB holder even better as it is cheaper!!!


and one day the market will realize this and the buyers of the monster and/or great BBB coins will be handsomely rewarded why pay more if it is an AAA holder??



sincerely michael

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Since 1986, I have been watching and comparing grading standards between PCGS, NGC et al. There were times (early on) when NGC let standards slip, but so did PCGS (maybe just not as badly). I have generally felt that NGC has consistantly graded US gold better than PCGS. On the other hand, PCGS graded Merc's better than NGC at one time. These things, also, have changed over time.


In today's high quality/higher price environment, both services have to be better than in the past. My feeling is that PCGS QA has slipped (i.e fingerprints, debris in slab). I feel that NGC is tougher on FB Franklins, Cameo coins, etc. There may not be a basis for comparison mano y mano between the two services. It may just finally come down to what series you collect and who you feel does the best certification job for your needs and grading standards for that series. In other words: Buy the Coin!!!


I do not personally see any pricing premium justification for one service against the other, except maybe for some older series PCGS coins that were systematically undergraded. These were mainly toned silver coins. You rob Peter to Pay Paul on these since most will upgrade. This all sounds like the "How many Nymphs can dance on the head of a pin" augument, which means to me that it is marketing hyperbole.


I have about 50%/50% PCGS and NGC coins. I do not perceive this as a handicap, because the coins were purchased based on the quality of the coin inside, not the slab. If I can get NGC graded coins of comparable quality for less money than PCGS graded coins, so be it! Some day this difference in perception between the two services also shall pass. I just hope that it is sooner than later.

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The only reason PCGS coins are valued more is because the PCGS trading and marketing system is much, much better supported by the PCGS network. When first initiated, the PCGS dealer network was supported by stockholders and the biggest financially stable coin firms. These firms have a vested interest in the PCGS product, they own stock and want the company to do well. NGC has a much smaller network, and does not have as widespread financial support on the trading market. The NGC philosophy seems to be 'let the open market determine value'. Thus, you see many bids posted on the networks by PCGS coin firms while NGC does not seem to have the backing or support. The PCGS philosophy seems to be, the dealer supports the market value, thus controls the PCGS product, whether it be up or down. The great illusion is, there is not enough money held by these dealers to ever support a market for a long term. In fact, if a SUBSTANTIAL amount of coins were ever to be sold onto the marketplace at one time, many dealers would pull their bids, causing lower market values on PCGS coins. There are NO safeguards in place. So an event such as 1980 crash or the 1989 crash could and WILL happen again.



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I always get a kick out of folks calling them "pcgs coins or ngc coins." I didn't know they made coins. But people these days seem to think so.


Anyway, my example of buying the coin and not the holder is I saw a 34D Washington quarter in a ngc slab graded ms65 at a local show. It had really nice toning (not the usual drab speckled for the date) and great luster coming through. Very clean I thought, and it being a scarce date in this gem grade I have to admit I was a little shy about the holder. This bothered the heck outta me.


Well it was a local dealer and it was his show only piece that he brought with him. Monday morning I went to his shop and there were a few to choose from. Yes even PCGS same grade and same price as the NGC graded one. The one in the pcgs holder was unattractive with the usual speckled drab toning and quite a few hits in the face.


This dealer usually charges the same (shock) no matter which holder a coin is in. Well I talked to a friend and he said ' I wouldn't pay PCGS prices for a NGC coin." This was funny and actually pitiful. I understood what he meant, but was I supposed to buy a coin that for a gem 65 was ugly IMO, and didn't make the grade?


Nope I bought the nice eye-appealing coin in the NGC holder and felt good about it. Somebody wants to talk the coin down someday if I sell it I'll just move on.


Sorry I rambled sooooo much

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I collect mostly pre-1934 US cents and prefer PCGS and ANACS to NGC when it comes to copper. This is based on my actual buying experience. I have no ownership interest in any of these companies. Regardless, I reject many coins in all brands of holders. Only the individual coin is worth money. PCGS coins currently bring a premium because their marketing is superior.

When it comes to copper I think ANACS is very underrated.

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ANACS is very underrated in many areas. The problem I have had is that I find lots of problem coins in ANACS holders that are marked as problem free. What's even more confusing is that my experience with submitting to ANACS has been that they are over-reluctant to assign net grades!

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I really hate threads based on hasty generalizations (and often I think the entire PCGS marketing scheme is a hasty generalization). As so many others, I collect coins, not slabs, and all a slab is to me is a physical representation of a service I paid for, either directly or indirectly. It's like any other service. When I want my shirts cleaned, I go to the cleaners, when I want my car fixed I go to the mechanic, when I want a checking account I go to the bank. Now there are many choices in each area, for example, if I just need an oil change, Jiffy Lube can do just fine, but if I need a new clutch, I'll go somewhere else that specializes there.


The pro graders are the same, as many have mentioned, some do better on some series than other. Personally, I agree with Oldtrader on gold, in that I believe NGC does a better job. The market bears this out, as it's more common from what I've seen for the coin graded by NGC to be priced higher than its identical PCGS counterpart. A few months back, I bought a nice 1852 double eagle graded AU-53 by PCGS, and it was one of the few AU type 1 double eagles graded by PCGS that didn't look like [!@#%^&^], but the dealer couldn't sell it at a premium! I paid AU money for the coin, and it was certainly graded appropriately in my opinion, and the slab didn't make a difference.


So the analyst in me want to know why? Why is there such a disparity in some series and not in gold where I spend most of my time? I honestly think the simplest answer is the most obvious, it has to do with the players in the market. For the most part, newer and less experienced collectors start collecting in modern and neo-classical series, and that inflow of newer collectors places the PCGS premium at a higher value. In Saints and dated gold, there are far fewer new collectors, after all most people don't come into the hobby and decide to put together a set of Saints by date and mintmark. It took me almost 20 years of collecting to start this set, and it took another 3 years after that to really learn how to grade them to a point where I can grade a raw coin and have the services confirm my assessment. With a market made up of folks like me, it's so much harder for dealers, or grading companies to pull off the marketing propaganda to convince us that we suddenly don't know what we are doing and should just pay a premium for their service.


Sorry to rant so long, but I think the important point is that the more knowledgable and experienced the collector based, the less valuable the opinions of the professionals.

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Without meaning to offend, I get so tired of hearing this.


The only way you can rationally compare the grading services is by specific series (sometime by specific date), and use a specific time frame, as grading standards have been anything but consistent over the years.


When looking at MS 65-6 Barber & Seated coinage, I have not seen much difference between the two services. At the MS 65 & 6 levels, I prefer PCGS SLQs.


In copper and nickel coinage, I usually prefer the PCGS graded coins. I've seen many Unc. Half Cents (Classic Half Cents forward) , Large Cents (Coronet Head forward) and MS 65 & 6 Liberty Nickels. The coins I've seen of these series which were graded by PCGS to me had more eye appeal; better luster, better strike, fewer contact marks, etc. However, I can't say I've seen much difference re Draped Bust Copper. The only Classic Large Cents I've seen have been slabbed by PCGS, and they've all been ugly, though I think that is due to the low quality copper that was shipped from England during those years.



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