Your thoughts on a Saint Please

[texasrichard]

Note: This is kind of a test as well because I posted the same thing across the street where I used to get a lot of helpful advice. Now that I've likely upset some folks they might not be so helpful...

 

I've been looking to hopefully pick up a 65 some day. Well actually it doesn't have to be a 65, just one that has a nice look to it. Common date is fine. Just a nice example of the coin. I came across this one.

 

Seller Pics

Common Date

OGH - MS64

 

Are the pictures good enough for you that REALLY know this series to draw an opinion on this coin? Do you think it would look good in hand as far as color and not a lot of obvious hits?

 

I am hoping that someone can tell me more than I could figure out with my limited exposure to this series.

 

Thanks,

Richard

 

[MikeInFL]

From what I've seen, PCGS grading on these coins is all over the place, even in an OGH. I wouldn't even consider purchasing this unless I either had a rock-solid return priviledge, the chance to examine it in-hand, or the recommendation of somebody I trusted.

 

All that being said, the pictures also have me concerned -- it appears as if either extreme jpg compression was used and/or the photo has been manipulated -- it is tough to tell just how hit-free this 64 is.

 

I don't mean to rain on your parade, but rather hope you go into this purchase with your eyes open...Mike

[Amanda]

Those pictures are not anything I would feel comfortable purchasing an expensive coin by.

 

-Amanda

[MunkyMan95]

Those pictures are not anything I would feel comfortable purchasing an expensive coin by.

 

-Amanda

 

Agreed.

[texasrichard]

Thanks Mike. No Rain Problem. I've emailed the seller to see if I can get better pictures. Of the ones I've seen in hand (only about 6 or so) they just don't start to look "good" until they are 65's. I just didn't know if OGH's were graded tighter like some other issues or not. Hopefully I can get some better pictures.

[MikeInFL]

Thanks Mike. No Rain Problem. I've emailed the seller to see if I can get better pictures. Of the ones I've seen in hand (only about 6 or so) they just don't start to look "good" until they are 65's. I just didn't know if OGH's were graded tighter like some other issues or not. Hopefully I can get some better pictures.

 

You are welcome....

 

IMO, OGHs are overrated unless you find a fresh one on the market (and it is tough to be sure). I think you will find that most of the upgradable OGH coins have already been upgraded.

 

With some searching, you should be able to find a nice, original, PQ 64. These coins are quite common -- there are literally hundreds of thousands of 64s in NGC and PCGS plastic. For instance, NGC has graded over 80,000 1924 64's. Just be picky and patient. One will turn up....Mike

 

p.s. going to a coin show and viewing lots of them in-hand (or turning to a trustworthy dealer) is your best bet in finding a "nice" one.

[MikeInFL]

repeated post deleted

[TomB]

Those images really can't help you at all for this coin. My opinion on this piece is the same as for any other coin purchase and that is if there is not a right of return without restocking fee that I would advise to pass on the purchase. These are not rare.

[LuvToCollect]

If you buy it and don't like it you can give it to me.It is Christmas time don't you know and I need a present.

[Bruceswar]

Based on the image! NO WAY IN HECK would I ever own this coin.

[DirtyGoldMan]

A common date Saint can be purchased at any coin show. My recommendation would be to wait until you go to a coin show (the bigger, the better), browse for a while until you find one you like better than the others, and buy it.A high-end 64 would be preferable to an average 65, IMO.

 

The photo provided would not stop me from buying the coin, so long as it is sight-seen. Of course, I would never buy a coin like that without a return priv.

[James_OldeTowne]

Honestly, being in an OGH means nothing to me anymore. They have been so picked over that I doubt there are many upgrades left in those old holders.

 

I'm concerned about the quality of those images. If the coin is truly PQ, why not take better, more accurate images? Make sure you have a solid return policy available if you decide to purchase this coin.

[texasrichard]

Thanks to all for the advice. You know how it is when the "bug" hits you..... "gotta buy something !!! " . I'll pick one up at the next show I go to.

 

As far as the "test" went.

Here I had 11 or so replies offering sound advice.

 

At my old stomping grounds the same question generated 2 replies.

 

I'll let you draw your own conclusions.

[BillJones]

As others have said the grading for St. Gaudens $20 gold coins, ESPECIALLY the common dates is all over the map. I've seen coins in MS-65 holders that I would call no better than MS-63. I've seen coins in MS-63 holders that were solid candidates for an upgrade. Here is an example of that. This 1922 St Gaudens $20 is in an NGC MS-63 holder. I bought this coin sight seen from a local dealer for less than $400 back at a time when gold bullion was down in price.

 

 

 

I would say that this coin rates another grading point, but since I'm nort going sell it anytime soon, I've not played the crack out game. Besides, depending upon the market the price difference between MS-63 and MS-64 might not amount to enough to make it worthwhile given the risk of getting the same or a lower grade.

 

As for the photo you showed at the beginning of this thread, it's next to useless for grading that coin IMO. The image is too small to provide enough detail, and the image is even broken up on my monitor.

 

Do I have money to own a higher grade example of this type. Yes, but this coin is OK by me. I've got all three types of St. Gaudens (High Relief, No Motto and this coin - With Motto), and this coin fits right in with the rest of my collection. Unless you are determined to be at the top the registry, which really impossible unless you are very rich person, coins like this are fine.

[BillJones]

To post things into perspective, this 1907 St. Gaudens is in a PCGS MS-65 holder. I own this one because I wanted to have an example of each of the three types of $20 gold coins that the mint issued in 1907. Can you spot the differences between this piece and the MS-63 graded coin I posted earlier?

 

 

[texasrichard]

Bill,

Thanks for your excellent posts / examples. I'm no expert as you can tell on these and I don't have my books with me so this is what I can see of the differences.

 

Of course the '07 is a "no motto" coin. I'm not sure what other differences there are other than condition. From the photos I see the 63 has some hits on the left leg, skirt, and a little on the forehead that the 65 doesn't. Also the detail on the 65 is just better, like when you look at the buildings etc. Also, and maybe just the pictures but the luster on the 65 appears much nicer.

 

Now you have me all fired up again but since there are a lot out there I'll need to practice my patience and get a nice one for the grade as you have done.

 

Thanks.

[BillJones]

The MS-65 actually has more hits on it than I would like for the grade. The luster, which is very strong on that piece, makes up for the hits. Also as you noted the coin is quite well struck, especially for this coin, which can come weak. Barber didn't quite have his interpretation of the St. Gaudens design down when he made the master hubs and dies for this coin in December of 1907.

 

There has been a lot of criticism of Barber through the years, and much of it was justified. He was a bureaucrat who was circling the wagons around his mint fiefdom to keep Teddy Roosevelt and August St. Gaudens out of his coin designing business. In that role he did what he could to obstruct the work of Henry Herring who did the die work in place of the St. Gaudens who was terminally ill with cancer at the time.

 

In the end Barber lost the argument. After St. Gaudens outside artists would redesign every regular issue U.S. coin until 1946 when John Sinnock got to introduce the Roosevelt dime.

 

Barber was right about one thing, however. The High Relief $20 gold coin was totally impractical and unsuitable as a business strike coin that could be used for commerce. The mint had a terrible time striking the coins at great cost. And after they are made, they would not stack into piles, which was very important for those who had to count them. Counting machines had not been invented, and even if they had been, the risk of scraping metal off a gold coin was too great. In those days if a gold was underweight because of wear or damage, you got less than face value for it!

 

At any rate here’s my High Relief $20 gold so that you can have a virtual type set of the St. Gaudens $20 gold series. This piece is in a PCGS MS-63 holder.

 

 

 

You can check out the rest of my gold type. It’s on the NGC registry and every piece is pictured.

[XpipedreamR]

Richard, you can't really tell that much about a coin from the kind of pictures you have posted unless it has some really glaring deficiency (I'm not seeing that in the pics). These are so commonly available and have so many different "looks" that may or may not appeal to you, that you really owe it to yourself to go to a decent sized show and see what's available before you buy, preferably with the assistance of someone who really knows his stuff. Alternately, get some recommendations from people who collect gold about dealers who deal in a lot of nice gold, and go though them. Don't settle for an ordinary looking piece, especially if you're just getting one for a type set. You've got the whole series to choose from, and you can definitely find something that really tickles your fancy. No need to be hasty, the coins have been around for almost 100 years and aren't going anywhere.

 

Just for fun, here's my most recent Saint. I think it's really awesome, but even with these large pics, you can only begin to see the snappy skin and luster and color of the coin.

 

 

[James_OldeTowne]

To post things into perspective, this 1907 St. Gaudens is in a PCGS MS-65 holder. I own this one because I wanted to have an example of each of the three types of $20 gold coins that the mint issued in 1907. Can you spot the differences between this piece and the MS-63 graded coin I posted earlier?

 

 

 

Bill,

 

It's an interesting way to pose your question. I think the MS-63 coin is a sure-fire one-point upgrade, but the MS-65 coin looks half a grade weaker. I do think the MS-65 is the better coin by comparison, because the hits it displays are not quite as prominent or as deep as the several gashes at the Liberty's midsection of the MS-63. So I think in relative terms, the correct coin is graded higher. It just isn't a full two points higher.

 

I must add that my experience grading Saints is quite limited.

[DirtyGoldMan]

Here's my favorite Saint (ex-Akers/Duckor/Brahin) in a 6 holder:

 

 

 

Oops! I guess they do not let you link off ATS.

[XpipedreamR]

For SageRad...

 

 

 

 

[BillJones]

Hi James,

 

The market at the time that you purchase things has an influence upon what you get. When I purhcased the 1922, the market was weak, and gold bullion was down at just over $300 and ounce. The 1907 low relief was purchased in higher market, and the pickings were poor.

 

1907 is considered to be a common date, but a lot of the coins you see are ugly. Common date Saints in the '20s are still around in quantity, and it's MUCH easier to find pretty one. You can find PQ common dates in the 1920s. The No Motto coins are a bit tougher, and I've found the 1908 to be easier to find than the 1907 in attractive condition.