Grading Service Forums: Who Benefits Who?

[dragon]

It's no secret that management over at CU has 'threatened' to shut down their forums completely and said they are not really a source of income for them and apparently more trouble then they're worth.

 

My question is who do you think benefits who.....are the grading services doing a favor to the dealers and hobbyists by providing free forums, or are we doing them a favor by visiting their website and providing content for free, or is it mutually beneficial for all parties?

 

 

Opinions?

[kryptonitecomics]

I think it's mutually beneficial.....but from a profit perspective....cleary the TPGs are generating substantial revenue by having the boards up and running which hypes their products and services.

[Zoins]

It's no secret that management over at CU has 'threatened' to shut down their forums completely and said they are not really a source of income for them and apparently more trouble then they're worth.

Part of me wonders if they said that just to get some sympathy and good behavior from their users. If so, it may have backfired because people didn't agree with them and started talking about the benefits they do get from having the forums.

[supertooth]

dragon----I agree with Shane 100%---but would add that we collectors do not have the financial figures in front of us. So anyone could say whatever they want, and we could not disprove it per se.

 

However, when we talk up coins on the forums----put pictures up for all to see---it is quite apparent that the TPGS [especially NGC and PCGS] have benefited greatly. We hype our own enjoyment in coins and that, in itself, spurs others to buy what they see and like.

 

It is also a PR thing-----and almost every business spends money on publicity. The chat boards do not pay any of us for our positive thinking. For the most part we all talk about how selling coins in NGC and PCGS holders brings more money in to the seller. And to the TPGS that holdered the coin. In my way of thinking that is a mutual benefit for everyone. Where else can a business [TPGS] get thousands of workers to work for 'free'----selling their products?? Bob [supertooth]

[okbustchaser]

I don't understand how an internet forum would make anyone more likely to buy coins graded by a particular company. Perhaps it is just me. I am no more likely to buy a PCGS (or NGC) coin because of these boards than I would be otherwise. I was buying them long before the boards existed. I still do.

 

Do the forums generate a desire to buy more coins? Sure, but for the most part only in people who would be buying them anyway. Otherwise, they wouldn't be participating in the forum in the first place.

[SuperDave]

PCGS has surrendered control of the intangible metrics which, ultimately, define true success - they've transitioned from a service-based corporate mantra to a money-based one. It is, in a microcosm, the same problem which affects pretty much all corporate America, the belief that your stock price is the sole metric which properly defines your success as a company.

 

Not only is that wrong, it's deadly wrong.

 

Having done so, they have also inevitably transitioned from leaders (who pull from in front) to managers (who push from behind). After a while, you forget what it took to lead, and mistake pushing for pulling. PCGS is now pushing, and they're pushing a whole crowd of successful Type A's (you need a lot of disposable income to be a higher-tier collector; generally it should be surmised that many among such a group will be headstrong and, rightly, self-confident). These are people who do not like to be pushed.

 

I believe that PCGS has painted themselves into a very tight corner here.

 

By contrast, we are now here discussing the matter, at a competitor's board, openly and without interference or even comment from those who own this place. If I were a manager (wait, I am) or a forum moderator (wait - I was for a few years), this is precisely how I'd handle this matter - let them talk it out. It will go away on its' own much more quickly if we're allowed to get it out of our systems than if they try to suppress it, and we'll remember that we were allowed to vent.

 

It doesn't hurt that, by comparison, NGC cannot help but come through this looking like the more worthy company. Far be it from me to offer suggestions concerning how to run a company in a business with which I'm unfamiliar, but I am of the opinion that it might be possible for a corporate management team of sufficient boldness to relegate PCGS to second-tier status in the aftermath of the last couple years (and the upcoming year).

 

Then again, I always believed that the best defense is a good offense.

[LuvToCollect]

The forum has been indispensable for me on so many levels. I posted once on the registry page about my brief journey in collecting and my thanks to the person who got me involved. in the hobby.

Gerald who I have known for twenty years was reading a coin magazine and I asked to look at it when he finished. Up until this point a couple of years ago I had no idea he was a coin collector. Gerald was always a nice enough guy but was always quiet and little was known about his life outside the work place.

My grandfather had tried to get me interested in coins as did my father although by todays standards they were gatherers and not TRUE collectors.

Gerald took time with me over a lunch, or just whenever if there was spare time, just to talk coins. I listened, I read, I researched, I watched the T.V.guys and yes, I admit, I watched the forums.

Now , two years later I have hundreds of graded coins, two NO. 1 registry sets and a love for this hobby that rivals my golf and pool playing.

Had it not been for the help of the board members and a kind numismatist and friend, my passion for the hobby might have never happened..

Gerald doesn't like computers so he will never see this and I often bring him information from the boards that amaze him. So if the TPG's think the forums are useless maybe they are out of touch. I don't mind helping weaker golfers or pool players and I thank you all for helping me.

I also thank NGC for providing this venue. I don't usually frequent people or places that make me feel unwanted and maybe thats why I like it here just fine.

[WinstonWare]

I can’t say for sure who else benefited, but I definitely have

[pendragon1998]

It's practically free advertising. Cheaper than a magazine ad.

[WoodenJefferson]

Excellent leaders in any size business do not stand on a podium and dictate.

 

Successful leaders poll the managers, mid-managers, supervisors, workers and even input from end users.

 

Productive leaders then make rational decisions and simply say, "Make it so."

 

In most cases those decisions are completed to satisfaction with any added room for improvement.

 

It matters not if it is coins or widgets, the principles remain the same, never belittle those you passed on the way up…you just might meet them again on the way down.

[James_OldeTowne]

I think it's pretty clear that there's a mutual benefit. I'll give a simple example.

 

I occasionally receive inquiries about coins from folks who stumble upon my website (unabashed spam: www.EarlyUS.com) through search engines. Quite often, especially when there is a question I'm not 100% certain of, I refer them to NGC's boards as an excellent source of information. I know for a fact that in the last year, at least two of these folks have joined NGC with a paid membership, yielding a little revenue - and I'm pretty sure a few submissions. So the benefits for both parties (NGC and members of the boards) is obvious.

 

I'll bet I spend an average of 1/2 hour perday reading and posting on these boards, and for the cost, it's an absolutely fantastic return on my investment dollars. In return, I trust that I'm occasionally able to offer a little value in return.

 

Dragon, terrific thread you started here, and highly appropriate circumstances given what's going on ATS.

[DC Dawg]

... but I am of the opinion that it might be possible for a corporate management team of sufficient boldness to relegate PCGS to second-tier status in the aftermath of the last couple years (and the upcoming year).

As part of this PCGS v. NGC debate was a thread that asked what do you (we) like or dislike about the grading services, or how would they be ranked. Overwhelmingly, PCGS was considered the best for grading and the majority rated their physical slabs better than others. In other threads, PCGS has been given "credit" or even a little "scorn" for being a tough grader even noting that they recently, and finally, gave a Lincoln Cent an MS-70 grade, their first.

 

The industry regards PCGS higher in this regard. While I do not subscribe to the greysheet or bluesheet, I have seen prices for PCGS slabbed coins as attracing a premium over other TPGS for the same grade. In many surveys, PCGS and NGC are considered the top tier graders with PCGS being preferred over NGC (with apologies to our hosts) and that PCGS is preferred over NGC by a slim margin.

 

With all of that, and considering that much of the collecting AND investing public does not read these forums, how is PCGS's management going to hurt their standing in the community? As long as they keep their grading standards, how will this affect anything?

 

NOTE: I have nothing against PCGS, NGC, or any of the other TPGS. They have all proven they have a place in the market. Unfortunately, as it was suggest, the market may be getting smaller because much of the surviving rare coinage has been slabbed. So we may see more "First Strike" issues by these TPGS.

 

Scott

[Zoins]

As part of this PCGS v. NGC debate was a thread that asked what do you (we) like or dislike about the grading services, or how would they be ranked. Overwhelmingly, PCGS was considered the best for grading and the majority rated their physical slabs better than others. In other threads, PCGS has been given "credit" or even a little "scorn" for being a tough grader even noting that they recently, and finally, gave a Lincoln Cent an MS-70 grade, their first.

 

The industry regards PCGS higher in this regard. While I do not subscribe to the greysheet or bluesheet, I have seen prices for PCGS slabbed coins as attracing a premium over other TPGS for the same grade. In many surveys, PCGS and NGC are considered the top tier graders with PCGS being preferred over NGC (with apologies to our hosts) and that PCGS is preferred over NGC by a slim margin.

 

With all of that, and considering that much of the collecting AND investing public does not read these forums, how is PCGS's management going to hurt their standing in the community? As long as they keep their grading standards, how will this affect anything?

 

NOTE: I have nothing against PCGS, NGC, or any of the other TPGS. They have all proven they have a place in the market. Unfortunately, as it was suggest, the market may be getting smaller because much of the surviving rare coinage has been slabbed. So we may see more "First Strike" issues by these TPGS.

 

Scott

I haven't looked at this in depth by here are my impressions from looking at eBay realized prices and reading various posts on some forums:

 

(a) PCGS is, on average, a more conservative grader than NGC. This can be seen in the pop/census reports. Pricing for high-grade US ultra-moderns goes something like: PCGS > NGC > ANACS > ICG. While ICG is considered a good grader for classic stuff, their grading is considered very forgiving for ultra-moderns.

 

(b) PCGS-encapsulated coins bring more for high-grade US ultra-moderns. High-grade here means 70 and 69 is merely average. For other coins, the difference may or many not exist. Albanese is offering a PCGS MS63 1915-S Pan-Pac Octagonal for at least $3,500 less than what a NGC MS63 recently sold for (on their homepage).

 

© Just because individual high-grade ultra-modern PCGS graded coins sell for more, does not mean NGC is less successful as a business. Someone across the street mentioned the latest earnings call said there was a drop in submissions and that later on it was discovered that a few large submitters had left PCGS. Because of its strict grading standards, it has been reported that some large submitters have moved from PCGS to NGC. If you are looking at the business from the perspective of a large submitter, it may be better to get more 70s that sell for less than few 70s that sell for more. One has to consider that PCGS MS69 and PR69DCAM ASEs often sell for less than the individual US Mint issue price + non-bulk grading fee on eBay. So submitters may actually be losing money or barely breaking even on 69s.

 

(d) NGC seems to have a lock on the world modern market. I don't see many world moderns in non-NGC slabs at all. When considering TPGs to send world moderns to, I really only consider NGC. While 69 US ultra-moderns may not bring much, NGC 69s for world moderns seems to be the norm. World coins may not be submitted in sufficient quantities to generate enough 70s to create a decent market.

 

The good thing about having 4 major TPGs (PCGS, NGC, ANACS, ICG) is that they offer differing services and one can make a decision on which is the best to use given the circumstances. And just because certain individual PCGS coins may bring more on the market does not mean NGC is less successful overall for those same coins. In fact, NGC may be more successful from a business perspective but this is unknown.

 

DISCLAIMER: Some of the above is based on unreferenced forum posts that may have been poofed.

[dragon]

Oh man, I just figured out what 'ATS' means. I thought it meant another little known coin forum somewhere, not 'across the street' LOLOLOLOL.

[IrishMike]

It seems to be a symbiotic relationship. It would cost a lot more money to attract this many potential customers any other way. As an added bonus the groups on both sites for the most part handle a lot of customer relationship issues for the companies. In the long run criticism aside both companies gain a huge net plus on the quality side.

 

I've looked CU as a good example of what happens to a company that was founded by experts in their field but not necessarily equiped to run a public company. There is no company I know of that doesn't put up from time to time with a great deal of aggravation. Good companies learn from this aggravation and make it a positive. Other companies spout off like a disgruntled parent chastizing their children when they misbehave. Customers aren't children they can leave home at any time. Threatening to take away something is an immature business response no matter how you cut it.

[comicAL]

Hi, All

 

IMO it is a WIN/WIN situation for all parties! The TPG business have a feeling for what the vocal collectors and retailers of the coin hobby are thinking of their business practices. Whatever that total is to the whole of the business. The collectors and retailers benefit from a great place to meet to share knowledge, helpful hints on collecting from the "old timers" and the choices that one makes in this hobby to improve ones enjoyment of it and of course a FUN place to share part of each day!

 

AAJ

[DC Dawg]

I think we're in violent agreement from different angles of the same issue! It's like me saying "salt is six sided" and you saying "no, it's a cube!"

 

Scott

[Oldtrader3]

Bean Counters and whiners should not lead companies, Satisfying customer need and providing services that do should be the defining charter of any service company, not thumping customers for complaints. It costs (8) times as much in service and goodwill to regain a customer as it does to attract them in the first place. Home Run Hall should quit whining and sniveling and worry about serving customer need. He is a salesman, he should already know that!

[Dcoin]

Its a classic debate... like unions vs managment or teacher vs students... who really need who?

In this case, HRH (Home Run Hall- Oldtrader3,2006) might be the one needing the masses. There are plenty of others waiting in the wings to become the new #1 TPG if PCGS were to disappear. Service oriented companies need us.

 

DCoin

[SuperDave]

I think we're in violent agreement from different angles of the same issue! It's like me saying "salt is six sided" and you saying "no, it's a cube!"

 

Scott

 

I have to borrow that quote sometime.

 

Scott, I'm more focused on what PCGS has done to its' reputation among some of the bigger whales in the numismatic waters with their actions, and the subsequent ripples, than their overall quality/reputation as a TPG. There's a heckuva lot more to a successful business than a quality product. NGC seems to get that.

 

Anecdotally, I have nothing favorable to say about PCGS from personal experience, and one real horror story which I won't relate until the smoke clears enough that it won't be considered spiteful on my part. Equally anecdotally, I just crossed a coin from ANACS (cracked) into an NGC slab, and it brought $220 when it never exceeded $150 in the ANACS slab.

 

So, my personal experience tends to favor NGC, even though I tweaked that they couldn't give my Zerbe-die 1921 the DPL it so rightly (in my biased opinion) deserved.

 

And I'm talking about those relative experiences here, which speaks to the original post.