Why Don't You Collect US Patterns?

[rkkay-migration]

Well?

[Beijim]

Because I don't know jack about them.

[chrisfuccione]

Cost to much. But I will be picking up new Judd book to learn about them. CHRIS

[Weidel Legacy Collection]

I'm with Chris - they cost too much and would divert my resources from other things that I am actively collecting...that also cost too much.

[msmhappy]

 

I agree with chris on this one.

 

Too much money!! And I also will be looking for the judd book soon as well.

 

mike

 

Dont forget! collect proof sets!!!!!!

[rkkay-migration]

Because I don't know jack about them.

 

Beijim, go to this website. It is a great start. As for you other guys, I hear you. They are pretty expensive, but some are available for $1000 or less.

[Hoot]

Seems like for their rarity, they're cheap! Tough to collect with a "pattern" of collection in mind.

 

Hoot

[gmarguli]

1) No price guide.

 

2) Too many to have a set.

 

3) Too hard to price for just the coin, much less the grade.

 

4) Too expensive.

 

5) I'd end up paying more than they are worth since I couldn't price them accurately.

 

6) Too hard to sell.

 

7) Too few collectors.

 

8) Too rare for the nice ones.

 

9) No current guide to them. (I know this will change soon).

 

10) Too hard to find when you want to buy them.

[Tradedollarnut]

I love to add an off metal regular die trial strike to whatever series I collect.

 

For instance:

 

[TomB]

Pretty much what Greg has already written. They are an esoteric niche of the market that I don't think would be as rewarding to place my numismatic dollars into as other areas.

[rkkay-migration]

My responses to Greg's comments:

 

1) No price guide.

 

True, but a little research of auction records and the prices in the upcoming Redbook, and you're pretty close.

 

2) Too many to have a set.

 

Not true. You can pick a specific set to collect, such as Morgan halves, and there are fewer than 15 in silver

 

3) Too hard to price for just the coin, much less the grade.

 

True for the R8 and high R7 pieces. See #1 for the low R7s through R1s.

 

4) Too expensive.

 

Depends on th e pattern. Many patterns are available in the $1000 to $2000 range. Many proof regular issues eclipse these numbers.

 

5) I'd end up paying more than they are worth since I couldn't price them accurately.

 

True, if you can't price them, but not true if you have someone knowledgeable on your side.

 

6) Too hard to sell.

 

True of low quality pieces. Not true as a whole. The entire pattern market has been scorching. Check the auction records.

 

7) Too few collectors.

 

True, relative to regular issues, but not true if you consider rarity (supply and demand). But that means more patterns for you.

 

8) Too rare for the nice ones.

 

Some of the nicer patterns are extremely rare, but others are easily located.

 

9) No current guide to them. (I know this will change soon).

 

See #1.

 

10) Too hard to find when you want to buy them.

 

Only true of the very rare patterns. I've handled hundreds of different patterns in the last few months, including dozens of high R7s and R8s. They can be found if you know where to look.

 

[clw54]

Just too expensive and I don't know what they are exactly.

 

(As an aside, there's a guy who has several at the monthly Anaheim show.)

[Julian]

There are lots of ways to collect patterns.

 

They make excellent additions to your current specialized collections.

 

Collect a type set of patterns.

 

Collect a specific year.

 

Define your own collection. This is one of numismatics great benefits. There is no one correct collection.

 

If you are unfamiliar with the values, compare them to other type coins. They are much rarer. Ask for counsel. Any of the specialists have had experience and can offer their views. Pay what you are comfortable paying. Don't be pressured into buying something. Have a reason to buy it.

 

Patterns are mostly well preserved. It is uncommon to see a circulated one.

 

Have a theme for your collection. Enjoy!!!

[Oldtrader3]

Too Tough to acquire.

Too Expensive, combined with too specialized (a Micro Market).

Too much distraction from the other 5 sets that I am actively working on.

[BillJones]

I only have two coins in my collection that are listed as patterns, the 1792 half disme and an 1836 "name on base" Gobrecht dollar.

 

One could argue that both of those pieces are regular issues because many of the surviving examples are worn. George Washington called the half disme "a small beginning" for U.S. coinage and indicated that the coins were needed for general circulation.

 

The Gobrecht dollars were issued in large quantities for a pattern at a time when there were few coin collectors in the United States. They were actually a re-introduction of the silver dollar to general ciculation.

 

As for the other patterns, I've only handled a few of them in my business. As a collector one only has so much money to spend, and given their expense, patterns have never been an area that interested me enough to take money from my other collecting interests.

[rkkay-migration]

I agree, Bill. Unfortunately, my only collecting interests are patterns, just like my business. I also find myself selling my favorite patterns because it would be unfair to compete with my clients.

[gmarguli]

You can pick a specific set to collect, such as Morgan halves, and there are fewer than 15 in silver

 

I've seen several of the Morgan halfs and dimes. For the halfs, you say there are less than 15 different types in silver. Just curious, but what do these go for? What about the other Morgan coins? I know that is a broad question, but I'm just looking for info on a semi-common one in average grade.

 

I like the design, but the few I've seen for sale have been priced rather high.

[rkkay-migration]

You win, Greg. The halves are super expensive (high $20s or more). The Morgan dimes are available for between about $8k and $15k.

[gmarguli]

You win, Greg. The halves are super expensive (high $20s or more). The Morgan dimes are available for between about $8k and $15k.

 

Ouch!! I would be willing to get some of these in the $2K area, but not where they are now.

 

That's why I don't collect patterns.

 

Are there any commemorative half dollar patterns?

[BillJones]

Are there any commemorative half dollar patterns?

 

Not that I know of, but if you would like to see what was in the drawingboard at various stages during the design process, check out Don Taxey's book on the commemorative coins. It has line drawings and pictures of plaster casts and moldings that show some of the early design proposals. Some of the alternatives were so good that I was looking forward to owning them until I realized that I could NEVER own them because they never existed as coins.

 

The Taxey book was never very popular, and used book dealers sell it dirt cheap when you can find it. Still it fills a hole with respect to the evolution of the designs, which is not covered in any of the other major works on the subject.

[Nysoto]

There does not seem to be many patterns for bust coins, the few available are way out of my financial means, I did not have an extra $50,000 for that platinum trial strike bust half that sold last year.

 

I do enjoy looking at the patterns in the auction catalogues I receive, the recent Stack's auction had quite a selection. Some of these prototypes are attractive, others were destined for failure from the start. I can understand how patterns could be more intriguing than simply collecting a series, although bust coins are challenging and interesting when collected by die variety.

[gmarguli]

I do enjoy looking at the patterns in the auction catalogues I receive, the recent Stack's auction had quite a selection. Some of these prototypes are attractive, others were destined for failure from the start. I can understand how patterns could be more intriguing than simply collecting a series, although bust coins are challenging and interesting when collected by die variety.

 

 

I really wish there was a book that detailed the reasons some of these patterns were not chosen as the final design. Some of the patterns are so beautiful that I cannot imagine how the bland designs were picked over them. I would like to know if it was for political reasons, manufacturing reasons, social reasons, etc.

 

Look at some of the coins proposed during the Liberty Seated and Barber eras. The fact that these two bland designs lasted so long is amazing.

[mark]

Greg:

 

You raise an interesting question, why some relatively ugly designs were selected over designs we think are stunningly pretty. I have always figured it was due to politics. For instance, WE know why the SBA design was selected (political correctness=politics) and ditto the current dollar design. But will collectors 100 years from now know? Though the information will exist 100 years from now, I bet most colelctors will have no idea why we used the SBA design.

 

Because I think people 150 years ago are basically the same as people today, I have to believe that politics played a key role then: Morgan was better liked than Barber, so we have the Morgan dollar and not a Barber-designed dollar; Longacre was actively disliked by some mint directors, so perhaps we have fewer Longacre-designed coins than otherwise; and etc.

 

But, as you pointed out, it would be extremely interesting to learn the details of the selection process. For what it's worth, the Pollock book goes a bit into a few cases, but does not go deeply and does not go into many selections.

 

Mark

[TomB]

To echo what Bill has written, I have a copy of the Taxay book that I bought at a used bookstore in NH. On the inside cover there is a seal for Bowers and Rudy and is written "Property of Bowers". It's a great book.

 

As for patterns of commems, at the last GSNA show I had a good friend of mine show me his brass Pilgrim half! There were only four made, I believe, and they were made from a hand-made die pair that had irregular letters on it. It was very cool and was slightly different from the released design.

[MikeKing]

Are there any 1901 pattern coins?

[rkkay-migration]

To my knowledge, there were no 1901 patterns.

[Coinosaurus]

RK-

 

I am fairly ignorant of patterns but I do plan to buy a couple at some point to go along with my seated quarter set........just haven't got there yet.........feel free to PM me if you have something rare (perhaps R6 or better) that isn't terribly expensive (i.e. like the off metal 1884 quarter that went for $18K in the last Superior sale).

[msmhappy]

 

If anyone is interested in the Judd book, it's for sale at a pre publication price of only $ 25.00 plus $5 shipping, a savings of $5.00.!!!

 

 

You can order buy phone buy calling Melissa Karstedt at 1-866-840-1913...

 

Or, e-mail orders to melissak@anrcoins.com

 

Or, go to www.anrcoins.com

 

this info was e-mailed to me curtosy of Legend Numismatics

or www.legendcoin.com

 

 

mike

 

---------------------------

 

dont forget! collect proof sets!!!!!!!!!

[Count_Erfit]

Because I already HAVE my prom dress

 

[oreville-migration]

I do happen to collect patterns but it is mostly in spurts. Too many coins call me with their siren that are NOT patterns and quite frankly I wished I had bought more patterns over the years.

 

I do find that it helps immensly to stick to just one denomination which in my case is the 10 cent (dime) denomination. Even then, I am only about 1/2 way through all of the ones I want.

 

Where I have run into "problems" is that in 1997, I fell in love with some aluminum patterns , namely the J-1252 1872 $20...... J-1372 1874 $5... J-1280 1874 $10 graded PCGS & NGC PR65. These are all R-7 and pop-1.'s with PCGS and NGC . They are currently in PCGS slabs but I also held onto the pop-1 NGC inserts. These patterns certainly have pleased me but I did have to sacrifice other coins I wanted nearly as much.

 

Pattern collectors have been known for discouraging other collectors from joining the field to "protect their domain." No matter, we will lose our private domain soon enough.