Do 1909 or 1910 cents exist with traces of "VDB" on the reverse.

[RWB]

This subject pops up now and then in research for the 1909-1915 Renaissance book, but solid information is scarce.

 

Removal of the initials "VDB" was done by polishing them off the master hub. Master dies were then created, then working hubs, then working dies needed to produce coins. Any failure to completely remove initials from the hub should have been propagated to most, if not all, working dies. Thus, there could be many 1909 cents with a trace of VDB - or there might be none. However, there is also the possibility of minute differences in the hub steel's hardness producing very faint "ghosts" of the initials.

 

Consider also, that in August 1909 Barber made a new reverse hub in an attempt to reduce the relief of the design and keep the thickness of the new coins within the same range as the old Liberty-head (aka "Indian") cents. Therefore, there are at least two non-VDB reverse hubs for 1909; and any 1910 that shows traces of VDB should be from the first – higher relief – hub made in 1909.

 

To test this you would need: 1909-VDB, 1909 from the first hub with VDB removed, 1909 from the second hub, 1910 normal with no trace of VDB and 1910 the traces of VDB. The 1909-VDB and 1909 first hub and 1910 traces of VDB should all have the same relief and radius of curvature. The 1909 second hub and 1910 normal should share the same relief and radius but differ form the other three just mentioned.

 

If anyone comes up with something convincing, let me know and I'll include it in the 1909-1915 Renaissance book now being written.

 

Accurateye@aol.com

[reid1836]

I would suggest a correspondence with Bill Fivaz. Seems like I remember him having a 1910 Lincoln cent with traces of the removed V.D.B. which was authenticated and certified by one of the top services. He would certainly be one of the best references, or perhaps Q. David .Bowers. Both are top notch individuals with extensive knowledge of specialty coins.

[TomB]

There was a member of the PCGS boards who went by the name of mtabusrunner who claimed, in 2001, to have been at the Baltimore show when he found a 1910-S VDB Lincoln cent. At the time he was just starting to get into the series and the coin was not noted as having a VDB on it. The coin was also lower grade and the VDB was very difficult to see. The coin was inexpensive but he passed on the purchase because he was not familiar with the variety. He also could not recall the name of the dealer.

[drwstr123]

This is a 09, first hub, VBD removed. I hope you can see this grinding that took place to do away with the initials and make a presentable coin.

Mike

[James_OldeTowne]

There ARE 1909-S VDB Lincolns that have an extremely weak "VDB". They get cherry-picked occasionally even today.

 

James

[WaxonWaxov]

So would they get certified as S-VDB?

[James_OldeTowne]

Yes.

 

James

[McKinley-migration]

so do 1910S VDB's exist??

[drwstr123]

so do 1910S VDB's exist??

Judging by the clear removal on the 09, no. I cannot imagine the VDB accidently left when there was such a direct order to remove them.

[DWLange]

The VDB reverse dies have higher rims than those without the initials. I have seen a few 1909(P) cents that lacked the initials yet had high reverse rims.These may have had the initials polished off the die, however I saw no tooling marks in the VDB area.

[RWB]

So far, things seem to be trending toward the negative, but at least the two hubs can be clearly identified for 1909. How about 1910 - anyone notice two or more reverse hubs?

[James_OldeTowne]

The 1910-S VDB is supposed to exist, and in talking to old-timers, I've heard the rumors - but then again, there are old timers who swear up and down that they've actually held a 1964-D Peace dollar.

 

I've never seen a 1910-S VDB, but I have seen a 1909-S VDB with a very weak VDB.

 

James

[skippy]

Here is a photo of a coin that may be a 1910S VDB. No actual trace of the letters is visible. However, it looks as though the density of the metal is slightly different and it reflects light differently. Note that the three little blotches are in the right position (shifted left) for a VDB.

 

With the coin in hand, you really don't see anything under magnification. However, if hold the coin unmagnified some distance from your face, the blotches jump out.

 

This image was extremely difficult to capture because there is no raised metal. You have to catch the light reflecting at the right angle.

 

The coin is owned by a friend of mine who goes by Steiny.

 

1910S VDB

[IGWT]

I see what looks to be a lustrous "B", but I can't make out the other letters.

[MunkyMan95]

I agree IGWT. Possible 1910-S VDB.

[skippy]

I see what looks to be a lustrous "B", but I can't make out the other letters.

 

As I said before, you cannot make out letters even in person. Not even a B.

 

But when letters are punched into a die, it causes a density change in the metal underneath (the metal is more compacted). This phenomenon is why police can use acid to raise serial numbers on guns that have had the numbers filed off.

 

What I think that one can see on the coin in the photo is the result of the density change. The reflectivity of the metal where the VDB was removed is different from the surrounding metal, and if you can catch the light right you can see the difference.

 

The most telling point in favor of this coin showing VDB remnants is that the metal with the different reflectivity apparently aligns with where a VDB would be.

[RWB]

Is the coin from the first hub of 1909...the one from which "VDB" was removed?

 

How would the difference in metal density/crystal structure propagate from an altered hub, through a master die, through a working hub, finally to a working die?

[IGWT]

How would the difference in metal density/crystal structure propagate from an altered hub, through a master die, through a working hub, finally to a working die?

 

You obviously don't believe in magic. How do we know for certain that no working dies were lapped to remove the initials?

[IGWT]

As I said before, you cannot make out letters even in person. Not even a B.

 

The "B" that I'm referring to shows as a shiny spot in the image. Is that what you're referring to when you write, "the coin unmagnified some distance from your face, the blotches jump out"?

[RWB]

Because the engraver said he removed the initials from the master hub....Lapping a working die would have created other changes if it were done deeply enough to remove the incuse initials.

 

Could individual dies have been lapped or maybe a master die? Sure if one wanted to waste a lot of time making certain the radius was correct and the rim height was right, etc. The cheapest, most efficient way to do this was to cut the raised VDB off the hub. Barber was not one to waste time and he had already been pulled from his summer vacation because of the silliness over the initials (which had been approved by the Sec of Treasury a month earlier).

 

[IGWT]

Could individual dies have been lapped or maybe a master die? Sure if one wanted to waste a lot of time making certain the radius was correct and the rim height was right, etc. The cheapest, most efficient way to do this was to cut the raised VDB off the hub. Barber was not one to waste time and he had already been pulled from his summer vacation because of the silliness over the initials (which had been approved by the Sec of Treasury a month earlier).

 

Altering previously hubbed dies would have been more efficient than discarding and replacing them.

[RWB]

Try it for yourself...make a "hub" and some "dies" from hobby clay (the kind that cures in an ordinary oven), then see how long it takes you to remove three small raised letters vs rubbing down a "die" so that the same three incuse letters don't show, but that everything else is like the original. Try it on a bunch of "dies" – but be sure they are all identical in radius of curvature and depth, otherwise you'll have problems striking good coin and the Coiner will condemn them.

 

The mint engravers were practical people. They had to make a lot of working dies quickly and they all had to be identical. In 1909 the only reasonable approach was to make one master hub (1), then several master dies (10/day), then several working hubs (10x10/day), then working dies (10x10xN/day). In three days Barber's department could easily have made hundreds of identical dies.

 

Note the following quote:

 

"...delay can be avoided by simply erasing the V. D. B. from the “hub” and having no B [i.e.: Brenner’s initial] whatever on the coin. From this amended “hub” the coinage dies can be rapidly and promptly struck off within three days and the mint can continue the coinage of the pennies for which there is a great demand and in which there is a great profit to the government." [August 6, 1909 to Sec. of Treasury MacVeagh from Asst. Sec. of Treasury Norton.]

 

Alteration of the hubs (this method was repeated in several letters and memoranda) was approved on Aug. 7 and revised coins began to be struck on Aug. 10; they were approved for release by Asst. Sec. Norton on Aug 11.

[IGWT]

I don't dispute anything that you're writing, Roger, and I very much appreciate the quotations of the source documents. I don't think that I'm explaining myself properly. All I'm suggesting is that a few working dies that were hubbed before the initials were removed from the master might have been lapped and put in service (instead of destroyed). I certainly don't know the answer; I'm just contemplating the possibility.

 

I agree that it would have been beyond foolish to keep using the original master hub only to efface the VDB from the working dies. In fact, that is very much the same reason that makes me (and others) question QDB's theory on die preparation of Shield 5c obv. A (see this thread).

 

In three days Barber's department could easily have made hundreds of identical dies.

 

Although I understand the geometric progression, I'm not sure that it would allow production of so many dies in just three days due to the amount of time necessary to make the impressions master hub > master dies > working hubs > working dies with 2-3 pressings each, time for annealing and tempering, and the handwork necessary to finish the hubs/dies. Also, I assume that the available labor and equipment limited production; it's not as though more than one hub & die blank could fit in the press(es) at one time. Does your research show how many presses/diesinkers were working at the Philly Mint at this time?

 

This kind of stuff fascinates me.

[RWB]

OK, now I understand your comment better. Thanks!

 

Re: Shield 5-cents. I’ll pass on anything that pops up, but documentation for that period is very sparse.

 

Re: Die sinkers: According to the Philadelphia Mint employee register there were six die sinkers on the mint staff in 1909: Samuel Hart, A. W. Straub, John Beatty, James Blythe, Harry Blythe and Charles Conway. In a pinch, Morgan and Barber might have helped out as could the assistant coiner. There were three hydraulic medal presses (175 ton capacity) that were used to make various dies as well as medals and proof coins, as well as two specialized die presses. (The latter is from inventory records – but we don’t know what they really used to turn out 1,200 or more dies a year.)

 

As far as the number of blows needed to make a die or hub, there are only occasional pieces of this type of information in extant documents. (If we had the engraver's department files a lot of basic questions could be answered.)

 

In 1878 Morgan says that it takes 8 to 10 blows from the hub to make one complete master die for the silver dollar. He says that William Barber will allow only one hub pressing per master die, per day, but that Morgan knows that two impressions can be made in one day. He also says he can do up to 10 master dies per day. Thus, it would take 4-5 work days to make the 10 complete master dies using Morgan's procedure (which was what was done). Each master die could be used 10 times per day to begin making working hubs, etc. He also implies making working dies direct from the master hub because of the urgency of striking the new silver dollars.

 

The 1909 $20 took 6 to 8 “squeezes” to make a complete die according to a memo to Dir. Andrew.

 

For bronze cents, the only comment is from 1914 where Barber commented that it took three impressions from a working hub to make a die, and he could make "...more than may be used in our presses in but one afternoon."

 

There may be other pieces of this info lurking in unsuspected places. The above are embedded in otherwise ordinary documents/letters. FYI, there's an ordinary Philadelphia Mint letter from 1912 that has on the back a handwritten note including the cost to produce various proof coins. So far as I know, it is the only extant direct reference to proof coin production cost until 1936.

 

This is way “overkill” on your question. Sorry to ramble on.

 

Still sounds like the 1910 w/traces of VDB is a questionable item.

[IGWT]

If that's rambling, please ramble on. One more question:

 

For bronze cents, the only comment is from 1914 where Barber commented that it took three impressions from a working hub to make a die, and he could make "...more than may be used in our presses in but one afternoon."

 

At this point, how many coin presses were in service, and how many die pairs were used at one time in each of the presses? (OK, I guess that's really two questions; but after this, I'll let you go . . . really.) Thanks.

[RWB]

It appears that all the presses were of the Uhlon type and used one pair of dies. They had, in 1908, at least 12 working presses in Philadelphia and one or two spares. All of these could handle cent-size coins, but only about half could strike half-dollars and larger gold coins. (They also had foreign coins to produce.) They also shipped presses around from mint to mint (the eastern mints) as replacements for ones that had been damaged or to cover very heavy local demand. After the New Orleans Mint was closed in May 1909, their presses were removed but I don't know where they were sent. In 1907 Barber complained that even if the Mint could get sufficient hydraulic presses to strike the high relief $20 in normal circulation quantities, there was no room to put new presses and no place for the press operators to stand.

 

At times of very heavy demand, the mint worked 24/7. This was the case in June 1909 and again in August after the change to the new reverse. There are several other documented instances. Oddly, not long after most of the “all nighters” the mint then laid off many of the workmen due to lack of work – only the clerks and skilled tradesmen had any job security.

 

Now, back the the "1910-VDB" cent....

[skippy]

As I said before, you cannot make out letters even in person. Not even a B.

 

The "B" that I'm referring to shows as a shiny spot in the image. Is that what you're referring to when you write, "the coin unmagnified some distance from your face, the blotches jump out"?

 

Yes. The blotches are not that evident if you look at the coin closely with a magnifier. But held some distance away and tilted to catch the light, the blotches really jump out.

[skippy]

Regarding how the effaced VDB came about: IGWT has the right slant IMO.

 

The mint considered dies to be a valuable resource. They were unlikely to discard dies simply because they had a VDB on them that could be removed by polishing the dies.

 

The mint had a long history of polishing dies to reuse them. When they were careless about the process, we see evidence in the form of repunching or overdates.

[physics-fan3.14]

Roger, I realize this thread is 10 years old, but a discussion of these pops up every once in a while. There is a question on CoinTalk about them here: https://www.cointalk.com/threads/1910-vdb.282403/#post-2491569

 

Do you have any new/updated information on the 1910 VDB cents?

[planman2014]

At this point I find it highly unlikely that any 1910 VDB exist. I have been offered 2 in the past and both were just worn coins and determining if there was a VDB down there was pure speculation.

 

I just quite frankly do not buy the idea any exist.

 

 

Far from an expert on the subject though.