Sold a Fake and Dealer says I switched. First Coin Purchase ever

[Npeterso-migration]

I purchased a coin from a reputable ANA ambassador coin dealer. I made this purchase for $963.00. I don’t know squat about coins, really I was looking to resell the coin on the internet to make a profit. So I invested in this coin. All the interested parties emailed me to explain that I am selling an Altered Coin with the mintmark “S” added to the 1909 VDB. I warned them that I do not sell fake coins. I also bouted that the Dealer I purchased this from was a professional coin Dealer and a Member of the Board of Governors for the ANA. Turns out enough variety of folks said the same thing so I ended up removing the listing. I submitted the coin to PCGS in Newport CA. It was there for one month. After discovering that the coin was a fake I took the report to the dealer to discuss the coin as a fake or altered coin and about getting a refund. The dealer refused to return my monies. He claimed that I was passed a bad coin and I’m trying to switch coins on him. Even though I opened the sealed package from PCGS in front of the judge the judged still ruled in favor of the dealer because I didn’t have the Cardboard holder thing with the coin. PCGS never sent it with the coin. It came in a plastic thing instead.

 

 

 

This means anyone can buy one of Mr. VIllalpondos Coins, and submit it to PCGS and have them inspect the coin and grade it as “not genuine” “Added Mintmark” / then try to get a refund on a bad coin from Mr. Villalpando but he wont refund. So then what? His customers get stuck with a Rotten Coin? This is not right, and any reputable dealer such as Mr. Villalpando should have higher standards. I was duped into a real coin when in fact it was not. What a dirty business.

 

 

 

Here’s the worst of it. To file a complaint with your ANA member I have to pay $70.00 for a membership then pay the monies ($1XX.XX) to file a complaint towards him? I think it is wrong. I don’t appreciate this.

 

 

 

It is not okay for customers to go in this man’s shop in a MALL and buy fakes, and not get their monies back

 

Oh I’m 24 and dumb when it comes with coins and I should have done my homework, yes but that is not an excuse to STEAL money. Again I was looking at it as an investment turns out I’m left with a “not genuine” coin….

 

 

 

I appreciate your response. More than anything ANA should be aware of this type of business Mr. Villalpando is doing. He may have a higher knowledge of coins than Joe shmoe like me but I really believe I was done wrong

[Stanley]

That is a sad story and one we hear all the time.

 

This is where you failed yourself." I made this purchase for $963.00. I don’t know squat about coins, really I was looking to resell the coin on the internet to make a profit. So I invested in this coin."

[Timulty]

I go with an old rule, if I buy a comic or coin from a dealer and I am not familiar with the coin or comic, I do not spend more than $100. Knowing what you are buying is the better half of all transactions. I can afford to lose $100. Losing $900 and I wasn't intimately familiar with what I was buying? Nope, that's insane. I am not trying to chide you Npeterso, I am just giving you a bit of advice. Advice, which I hope you will heed in the future.

[Npeterso-migration]

I see, So what has to happen? Do I propose new standards in witch dealers abide? Paperwork, Garauntees, Real Customer Service? Car dealers have to abide by lemon law, should Coin Dealers also?

 

who else is going to get ripped off next? What about success stories where someone did get their monies returned?

[Stanley]

I see, So what has to happen? Do I propose new standards in witch dealers abide? Paperwork, Garauntees, Real Customer Service? Car dealers have to abide by lemon law, should Coin Dealers also?

 

who else is going to get ripped off next? What about success stories where someone did get their monies returned?

 

The experts, which I am not will tell you the only way to protect yourself is educate yourself

[Npeterso-migration]

Well That why Im hear. I have been wronged and am educating myself so I can be done right. The next person that goes to this shop and buys the 1877 Indian head penny is going to get duped. PCGS will toss the cardboard holder and the dealer will just say O you swiched coins, or O you were passed a bad coin. Next thing you know the customer has a 1877 FAKE... all for 700 Bucks. I talked with PCGS, dealers get huge discounts on grading coins so if this dealer I bought from doesn't have these high valued coins "slabbed" then there is a reason. Too bad I discover all this after the fact... I serve this country 24/7 the laws that I protect didn't help me one bit.... It's now about principle not $1K + that I spent on this money pit...

[Stanley]

Here is just one post from yesterday. Check this one out

 

If you hang around there is a lot of information you can learn here on these boards.

[WinstonWare]

I'm not clear on what you are asking for help with here. The 1909-S VDB is known to have counterfeits. It is known even by me, and I don’t own a single wheat cent.

 

Also being ripped-off is not exclusive to the coin market. In any investment you make, coins or otherwise, you should have some knowledge and practice before making a large purchase.

 

What you are saying happened does sound crappy. I think we can all agree on that. Back to my original point, what are you asking us for help with?

[Bruceswar]

I see, So what has to happen? Do I propose new standards in witch dealers abide? Paperwork, Garauntees, Real Customer Service? Car dealers have to abide by lemon law, should Coin Dealers also?

 

who else is going to get ripped off next? What about success stories where someone did get their monies returned?

 

Coins and cars cannot be compared. Every car is basically the same give or take a few options, while as every coin is different. This if true is an unfortunate situation. Education is the key to buying and selling coins. I have been in this game for 16 years now and I still a relative newbie when it comes to alot of aspects of coins. My advice to you is this. From the dealers standpoint you had the coin for how long before you came back to him? I am guessing at least 2 months. That being said there is alot of time where the coin COULD have been switched. Not saying it was but it could have been. Now if what you say is true, then I see no reason for the dealer not to work with you on the coin. As sticky as this situation is you are going to have a hard time getting anywhere. I hate to put it like that, but its happened many times over. Best advice is to take your losses sell it as a fake, learn more and move on. I know it hurts, but we have all been down that road at sometimes making mistakes on coins, not only with real vs fake, but in overgrading. Sometimes a one point grade can add thousands of dollars in value. Good Luck to you and stick around.

[Npeterso-migration]

Really I would like some sympathy, pity, or whatever.. Just kidding. I want it to be known that something has to happen wheather it was me or you or someone you know. This is wrong. I choose to take a stand. I don't know where to start.

 

mainly I am asking if anyone has pushed the issue in the court of law... What happens after small claims if the judge dismisses the case?

 

What happens in REAL court.

 

I gave a man 963.00 For nothing....

[WinstonWare]

Ah, now that is a question that we may be able to answer. I personally haven't had the experience but maybe someone else has...

[Npeterso-migration]

I questioned the Authenticity after some folks mentioned the altered mintmark the very next day. ANA told me a dealer Will stand by thier coin, and they tried to mediate.. It all backfired. I had the coin in my possession for approx 10 days before I submitted it to PCGS. I received the coin and saved it SEALED to open up in court. I opened it and the judge was the first to see the coin as PCGS graded it. After court, the judge asked the dealer how counterfiets are made. Mr. VIllalpando started to explain in detail how mintmarks are added to coins..... I about pooped my pants...

[HaydenTubbs]

100

[Bruceswar]

100

 

This is not the PCGS boards...

[Here]

For what it's worth, I believe your side of the story.

 

 

 

Jerry

[Npeterso-migration]

Jerry, I would have to say... You my friend are my HERO!

[jtryka]

Have you looked into the PNG? Was this dealer a member of PNG? Perhaps they might be able to help, their website is www.pngdealers.com

[MarkFeld]

Npeterso, I am very sorry about what happened to you.

 

I have no reason to doubt your side of the story. However, the problem is, that once you removed the coin from its original holder, there was no way to PROVE it was the same coin you bought from the dealer in question. Opening the "sealed package from PCGS" in front of someone only showed that PCGS examined that particular coin, not that it was necssarily the same coin you bought from the dealer. It comes down to his word vs. yours, with no good (legal) proof that you can provide, regardless of what you might think or know.

 

Please do not think I'm other than sympathetic. I just don't see a practical/realistic way for you to prevail, based upon the information you have provided.

[TomB]

It's unfortunate you have a counterfeit, but I really have no sympathy for you. Please don't take that the wrong way, I'm not at all happy about what happened, and I think you may be telling the truth, but there were so many ways you could have protected yourself in this case that you chose to ignore. In that way, this is a valuable object lesson for you to learn.

 

The 1909-S VDB Lincoln cent is one of the most highly altered and counterfeited coins around, but there are also well known diagnostic markers for the coin that can be used to identify genuine examples. The fact that you claim to know nothing about coins, yet were willing to part with nearly $1,000 for this piece simply to flip it for a quick profit, is where you made your first error.

 

That the coin was not certified should not necessarily have been a red flag because there are enormous numbers of this date that are not certified. Since the diagnostics are so well known, it is fairly easy for someone who is prepared for the purchase to determine if the coin is genuine. Therefore, it is likely that the dealer who sold you this coin knew the piece was bad. I agree with you that that in this case it is robbery, fraud, misrepresentation or whatever the legal term might be.

 

However, when you submit a coin for certification, the certification company will remove the coin from the flip in order to examine it. Therefore, if you open the PCGS package in front of a judge you should expect the coin to be out of the original 2x2 that you submitted it in. Truly, I would fall out of my chair if it were returned in the unopened 2x2 that it was submitted in.

 

I believe there is merit to the defense argument put forth by the dealer, even if he knew it was a lie. Since the coin was removed from the 2x2 that you purchased it in, how would anyone know for certain that you had not switched coins and were trying to make a $1,000 score? Please note that I am not stating that you did this; I am merely asking you to objectively answer that question. It appears that the judge was thinking along the same lines and ruled against you. Even if the judge might have felt that you were telling the truth, you did not have solid chain of possession evidence.

 

If you had done your homework prior to this purchase you would have known that you could buy a certified example, you would have known the diagnostic markers of original examples and you might have known the diagnostic markers of well known counterfeits. If you had paid by credit card, which might be the case but you have not stated this, then you may have had additional avenues to persue. However, if you paid by a less secure method (cash, check or money order) and you did not do your homework, then you were really setting yourself up to be taken and this could happen in any field.

 

Again, it's unfortunate you had a loss, but you can learn to avoid repeating this.

[WaxonWaxov]

I recently had a similar problem with a coin I bought off of Ebay see this thread to read about it.

 

Same story... I bought a raw coin, sent it to NGC, NGC body bagged it for being fake, I contacted the seller, he claimed I switched coins.

 

It was a case of his word against mine.

 

In that case, I went for a refund through PayPal since I paid through them. I eventually got a refund based on "significantly not as described"

 

This was only after I made it clear that I would not back down.

 

Question for Npeterso: have you already gone to court? The did court rule in his favor? If so, then I think you're screwed.

 

You said he's in a mall.. you might be able to complain to the management of the mall, but I doubt that will help.

 

Did you pay via credit card? Then seek a refund from them based on "Significantly not as described" but it's been a while, so you might be out of luck.

[Here]

Jerry, I would have to say... You my friend are my HERO!

 

I'll be right up front with you. What happened to you is believeable to me because I've heard of it happening to others. This exact same thing that happened to you pops up every now and then. On the other hand, if the dealer you mentioned that this happened with comes on here and gives his side of the story, it's going to be beleiveable too. Stories of coins being swapped on dealers pops up just as much as what you are claiming...maybe even a little more. Nearly impossible to resolve.

 

 

 

Jerry

[Jeff S]

Npeterso why did you not take the coin back to the dealer before sending it to PCGS?

[braddick]

What is disturbing is the Dealer was seasoned and would have/could have easily spotted a fake 09-S VDB before placing it in his dealer stock/inventory.

 

The fact is, either he is a thief for selling the coin as an altered key date or the coin really was somehow switched after the purchase.

 

Either scenerio is a black eye on the collecting community.

[John Martinez]

Truly, I would fall out of my chair if it were returned in the unopened 2x2 that it was submitted in.

 

I'm a novice. I have not sent any coins in myself for grading. That said, the TPG's do not have a procedure in place to track posession? If not, the what stops the TPG's from switching coins? - Ok, so I buy a coin, photograph it in the holder I received it in, send it in to the TGP and they return it in a BB as a fake. I go to court, I have my evidence, but where is the TGP's evidence that it is in fact the same coin? Without a procedure in place and proof it is followed to track the possession, either way in a court of law, you are out of luck.

 

Now for the other side. If that coin dealer does not have a procedure in place that he follows to show posession and/or track back what he sells, then I could use that information against that dealer in court as well.

 

While I can feel for my fellow novice, we only have one side of the story. It is my wish that all novices can learn from his mistake. So I thank you for posting your story.

 

Question. Does anyone know if I can request form the TGP's the original holders be returned with the graded or BB coin even for a fee?

[MarkFeld]

What is disturbing is the Dealer was seasoned and would have/could have easily spotted a fake 09-S VDB before placing it in his dealer stock/inventory.

 

The fact is, either he is a thief for selling the coin as an altered key date or the coin really was somehow switched after the purchase.

 

Either scenerio is a black eye on the collecting community.

Pat, I think you're giving the dealer too much (or is it too little?) credit. I know of many dealers, seasoned or otherwise, who have been fooled by such coins. Either way, however, I agree about the "black eye".

[relicsncoins]

I think the proof is in why risk a multi-million dollar business over a few thousand dollars.

 

JJ

[Bruceswar]

What is disturbing is the Dealer was seasoned and would have/could have easily spotted a fake 09-S VDB before placing it in his dealer stock/inventory.

 

The fact is, either he is a thief for selling the coin as an altered key date or the coin really was somehow switched after the purchase.

 

Either scenerio is a black eye on the collecting community.

Pat, I think you're giving the dealer too much (or is it too little?) credit. I know of many dealers, seasoned or otherwise, who have been fooled by such coins. Either way, however, I agree about the "black eye".

 

Last few weeks have been tough in coins, from situations like this, to blue toned copper... to scams.. but Overall the market for coins is very stable and if a few jump ship that just means more coins for me.

[Here]

What really stinks in these situations is if both sides honestly believe they are right.

 

 

 

Jerry

[TomB]

I'm a novice. I have not sent any coins in myself for grading. That said, the TPG's do not have a procedure in place to track posession? If not, the what stops the TPG's from switching coins? - Ok, so I buy a coin, photograph it in the holder I received it in, send it in to the TGP and they return it in a BB as a fake. I go to court, I have my evidence, but where is the TGP's evidence that it is in fact the same coin? Without a procedure in place and proof it is followed to track the possession, either way in a court of law, you are out of luck.

 

Now for the other side. If that coin dealer does not have a procedure in place that he follows to show posession and/or track back what he sells, then I could use that information against that dealer in court as well.

 

While I can feel for my fellow novice, we only have one side of the story. It is my wish that all novices can learn from his mistake. So I thank you for posting your story.

 

Question. Does anyone know if I can request form the TGP's the original holders be returned with the graded or BB coin even for a fee?

Certainly the TPGs track possession of the coin. My point was that the submitter could have submitted the coin and the already opened 2x2. So, even if the TPG were to send the coin back to you, it might never have been sealed in the 2x2. Also, most times the TPGs simply throw the packaging material away, unless you specifically request otherwise. Regardless, my point was that the TPGs do not follow the packaging the coin is sent in, they follow the coin. Therefore, if the coin is removed from the 2x2 then there is no way to know that it was truly ever in the 2x2.

[John Martinez]

I'm a novice. I have not sent any coins in myself for grading. That said, the TPG's do not have a procedure in place to track posession? If not, the what stops the TPG's from switching coins? - Ok, so I buy a coin, photograph it in the holder I received it in, send it in to the TGP and they return it in a BB as a fake. I go to court, I have my evidence, but where is the TGP's evidence that it is in fact the same coin? Without a procedure in place and proof it is followed to track the possession, either way in a court of law, you are out of luck.

 

Now for the other side. If that coin dealer does not have a procedure in place that he follows to show posession and/or track back what he sells, then I could use that information against that dealer in court as well.

 

While I can feel for my fellow novice, we only have one side of the story. It is my wish that all novices can learn from his mistake. So I thank you for posting your story.

 

Question. Does anyone know if I can request form the TGP's the original holders be returned with the graded or BB coin even for a fee?

Certainly the TPGs track possession of the coin. My point was that the submitter could have submitted the coin and the already opened 2x2. So, even if the TPG were to send the coin back to you, it might never have been sealed in the 2x2. Also, most times the TPGs simply throw the packaging material away, unless you specifically request otherwise. Regardless, my point was that the TPGs do not follow the packaging the coin is sent in, they follow the coin. Therefore, if the coin is removed from the 2x2 then there is no way to know that it was truly ever in the 2x2.

 

If situations like this original post describes continue, then in my humble opinion, the TPG's should take in consideration the full scope of possession, including packaging. Maybe in my ignorance I do not understand what that would entail, but if I were a TPG, I would sure want to document the entire posession from receipt to grading to shipping, and yes, packaging that it came in would be a part of that audit trail.

 

I don't mind calling myself ignorant, because ignorance can be cured with education. Which is why I am here. I do appreciate your feedback.