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If not for certification, would altered coins be the problem they are today?

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One undeniable effect of certification is that it has induced buyers with blind trust in certification to pay large sums for coins they wouldn't buy otherwise, especially with regard to wildly toned coins. Therefore, the demand for such coins has escalated astronomically, and everyone "knows" such coins are being manufactured to meet demand.

 

If certification had never become available, would the problem be as widespread as it is now?

 

James

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Probably not, but I also think the answer to this question is dependent on the type of toning and the coins composition. From what I have read from the threads here and across the street the only absolute manufacturing is MS70 with copper creating a blue copper coin. I'm not suggesting that the doctored coins are limited to blue copper doctoring, but I am suggesting that it would appear more difficult to create classic rainbow bag toning, target album toning, and especially textile toning. I would pay a premium fior a raw version of any of those types of toning today.

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I agree with Tom. Cheaters and snake oil salesmen have been around

since commerce began, even though the TPGs aren’t perfect they do filter

out some AT coins.

 

Hays

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I remember the days before certification when toning was worth a premium ..... of about 25%. You might even pay a 100% premium for something really amazing, but that was practically unheard of. Coin doctoring (and by this, I mean the application of wild toning), while certainly around, didn't attract anywhere near the attention it does today.

 

Today, the premiums for wild toning are astronomical, bordering on the absurd. 1000%? 5000%?? I contend that these are the types of premiums that have made the coin doctoring job lucrative. And it is certification that gives certain types of people the confidence to stick their hands up in the air at auctions and leave them there.

 

Frankly, I think the advent of certification has made the problem of doctoring coins (again, by that I mean applying wild toning) much, much worse today than it was twenty-five years ago.

 

James

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Frankly, I think the advent of certification has made the problem of doctoring coins (again, by that I mean applying wild toning) much, much worse today than it was twenty-five years ago.

 

I wasn't collecting 25 years ago, but I've got to believe that the same reasoning applies with respect to the price differentials that often accompany a one-point bump in grade.

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I remember the days before certification when toning was worth a premium ..... of about 25%. You might even pay a 100% premium for something really amazing, but that was practically unheard of. Coin doctoring (and by this, I mean the application of wild toning), while certainly around, didn't attract anywhere near the attention it does today.

 

Today, the premiums for wild toning are astronomical, bordering on the absurd. 1000%? 5000%?? I contend that these are the types of premiums that have made the coin doctoring job lucrative. And it is certification that gives certain types of people the confidence to stick their hands up in the air at auctions and leave them there.

 

Frankly, I think the advent of certification has made the problem of doctoring coins (again, by that I mean applying wild toning) much, much worse today than it was twenty-five years ago.

 

James

 

Good point James. It’s just that we are in the middle of a bull market right now.

I wasn’t in the hobby 10 years ago but the TPGs were - did people pay 1000%

or 5000% extra for toning back then? I think people paying that much will

regret those purchases if they still have those coins when the market cools.

And the market will cool down, they always do.

 

Hays

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Parasites (doctors and their enablers) have always been peripheral to the hobby. They were around prior to the advent of certification, they are here today, and they will be around in the future. 20+ years ago they were adding mint marks, now they are adding color. The inherent inefficiencies of the coin market combined with the plethora of eager and novice buyers is a huge attraction for them. TPG services, with their whimsical sense of standards and need for submissions (revenues), are not going to keep the doctors at bay and all the problem coins out. Don't put any hope in this.

 

As others have already stated, educate yourself, develop a sense for detecting when something just doesn't seem right about a coin, pass on a coin when in doubt, seek value in the coins you do purchase, and only deal with people you trust.

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Hey James----Let me take this back 40 years. Naturally, I can go back 50---but 40 is enough. In those years of the 1960's, I was trying to finish my Whitman sets. I didn't buy many coins in those days. Just took them out of change. But nice 27S Walkers and nice 28S Walkers were not to be found. So, I decided to put up the 8 or 9 bucks and get a nice XF for both dates. In reality---40 years later---I found out the coins were only VF in grade---and had been cleaned. My point is that---crooks have always been in this hobby---but back then they stole but a couple of bucks out of your pocket. Today, it is beyond 5 or 10%. There seems to be BIG THIEVES today. They do not want to steal a few bucks. They want to steal a year's salary off of one coin. And, I for one, believe that this thievery is criminal. And, when caught, these folks NEED to GO TO JAIL. Not that all bad things shouldn't be punished--but these guys have crossed every line of MORALITY. In my business of being a dentist, to cause us trouble you had and have to prove 'intent' or 'intent to harm'. When you alter a coin for a profit---you definitely have 'intent to harm'---both the coin and its future buyer. Bob [supertooth]

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I think that on a percentage basis, there were probably as many coin doctors before the days of slabbing as they are now, but the difference is that whereas you might buy a coin for $50 and find out later it was whizzed and only worth $5 (90% loss of $45), today, you buy a coin for $5000, and find out it's been doctored and worth only $500 (90% loss for 450). It just seems like the way certification has encouraged the addition of so many newbies to buy at such inflated prices has raised the level of risk to astronomical levels.

 

In this age of certification, I do believe that on a coin per coin basis, your odds of buying something that's messed up are way down. But when it does happen - and it DOES happen - it happens in a really big way.

 

James

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Whether this is a problem or not depends on the size of the tone doctored market in relation to the overall market. Certification ensures that whizzed coin is identified so the buyer knows. I would not think the $5,000 doctored coin is a very common occurance (unless I was the one in a hundred thousand transactions that got bit). I'm certainly not sure of the percentage but, it is a lot harder to push a doctored coin through certification and then to a buyer than it is to go straight from doctor to buyer.

 

And as far as overall pricing being bolstered by certification, that's a good thing. It is even better for those that have been consistantly in the hobby for many years. Forums like this and certification enable new people to enter the hobby with less risk than simply relying on local dealer. There are still both "used coin dealer" and professional coin dealer almost everywhere.

 

There have been and always will be the cheaters and the gullible. We can teach and encourage but, common sense can not be taught. Learn BEFORE spending much money and go slowly has been the strongest theme on this forum since I've been here.

 

If you really want to see doctoring and high dollar cheating, come with me to a violin auction!

 

Regis

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