i like modern coins * but the prices for ultra high grade slabbed moderns....NOT

[michael]

kind of like the huge sellers and promoters of slabbed high grade modern coins on the other boards and then they totally buy and collect something else all together

 

if they are so into moderns then why dont they put their money where their mouth is so to speak?

 

and in reality there is no modern bashing it is a no brainer

 

what the problem is the slabbed plastic holders that hold such coins where if the modern coins most all of them ultra high grade were broken out of their respective holders their value would plummet hugely immensively and so with their demand

 

i do not think there are any modern bashers on the boards

 

not modern coins per say just those modern coins in slabbed ultra high grade plastic holders thast create 80% 90%95% if not more of the coins value

 

 

sincerely michael

 

[michael]

i think coins are great all coins

 

WHAT IS NOT GREAT ARE SLABBED ultra HIGH GRADE MODERN COINS THAT IF BROKEN OUT OF THEIR RESPECTIVE SLABS lose most all of their slabbed market prices and liquidity

 

let me ask you this how much is a slabbed sac dollar worth in a pcgs ms69 holder? and how much would you get offered for the coin if you cracked it out of its holder and walked the bourse at long beach and got offers from modern dealers for such a coin?

 

sincerely michael

 

[LucyBop]

sounds to me like a good reason never to crack em out.

[gmarguli]

kind of like the huge sellers and promoters of slabbed high grade modern coins on the other boards and then they totally buy and collect something else all together

 

if they are so into moderns then why dont they put their money where their mouth is so to speak?

 

I can understand this. If you collect what you buy/sell, then you will likely be rapeing inventory at times and that is a bad business move. Many US dealers collect foreign coins or stamps. I buy/sell moderns, but I collect classic. I suppose that if I collected modern I would buy/sell classic.

 

I'm not saying that moderns will hold their value. I think the proof moderns are a joke. The MS moderns can have rarity to them, especially in higher grades. The problem occurs when someone spends $5,000 on a pop 1 MS68 and there are 420 MS67s that sell for $30. That's usually a bad move, but you never know...

[michael]

greg let me ask you that pop one ms 68 modern that is 5000 dollars

 

if you broke that coin out of its holder what would most of the modern dealers pay for such a coin raw? or even the original seller of the slabbed ms68 coin if it sold for 5000 what would the dealer but it back for raw?

 

4500 3000 2000 1000 500? at least it has to be worth 50% of its holder cost say 2500??

 

even 10% say 500 dollars???

 

any thoughts

 

also the scenerio of the modern coin seller collecting something else well that just does not hold water for me because of one thing

if this seller sells modern coins ultra high grade modern coins say that ms68 for 5000 for instance i bet out of the holder it is worth substancually less

 

but his classic coins he collects say a proof seated quarter in gem proof i bet that coin is at least worth 50% or more raw i bet not even 10% for the modern coins that is my point

 

i cant seem to justify the knowledge integrity and responsibility of the practice it might be legal and there might be demand but this ultra high grade modern slabbed coin seller is not helping the market in my opinion

 

that doesnot make it right

 

it might be a house of cards waiting to fall then will these modern ultra high grade coin sellers make buy back offers? i think not they are just in it to make a fast buck with something they totally do NOT believe in

 

that to me is well less than .......................

 

 

sincerely michael

[LucyBop]

why would anyone break such a coin out of its holder? That wouldn't be smart.

If I had a Classic in a high grade, I wouldn't break it out of its holder either....

But I see your point, the classic if broken out would get more interest then the modern, but you still stand a chance at losing a grip... A friend of mine has a ms68 commem half... A Grant if I remember correctly. Now why in the world would he break it out of the holder and chance it grading lower whether its NGC/PCGs? Same for the modern.

[LucyBop]

nice edit to your original remarks micheal, isnt it great that you can hide your edit?

[gmarguli]

greg let me ask you that pop one ms 68 modern that is 50000

 

if you broke that coin out of its holder what would most of the modern dealers payfor such a coin raw?

 

4500 3000 2000 1000 500? at least it has to be worth 50% of its holder cost say 2500??

 

even 10% say 500 dollars???

 

 

I guess it all depends. Let's say the coin was worth $5,000 in the holder at MS68. It's a pop 1. The *market value* hasn't changed (i.e. same demand for a slabbed MS68). Someone breaks it out. If the coin is a solid MS68, then I would bet you could find dealers willing to take the chance at $3,000+.

 

I will buy raw moderns for strong money. However, that "strong" money will take into account many factors. The biggest factors is the fact that the grading services can change standards at any time and even if it is an MS68 by the current standards, the games they play might make it hard to get back into the slab. I would price this into the coin. And of course there has to be some discount for the possibility that I graded it wrong. I would probably pay $1,500 for the coin - maybe more.

 

The same price discount can be found for classic coins, like an MS68 Morgan or MS67 Seated coin. It's just that the drop can be more dramatic for moderns.

[braddick]

Everyone is making excellent points, but allow me to throw this in the mix.

 

Contemporary coins are kind of like the wild wild west. There are still "hits" to be made. For example, if you look hard and long enough some wonderful scores are to be had as is proof by Threads that 'show and tell' these finds.

 

That is somewhat difficult to do with Classics. For example a high grade, low pop 1974-S in MS68 can be located out of a set for $12.00 (value once in a holder= $200.00). Or, how about those StateQuarters landing in MS69 plastic!?

 

That's the wild wild west. In Classics? Well, it's not that the well has run dry but boy, you sure better have a heart that allows for risk and a pocketbook that allows for multiple submissions (of the same coin!) for a decent 'hit' to take place.

Moderns offer low down side if you are the FINDER/MAKER. Classics don't- for the same outlay.

[cladking]

Rare moderns can be found in pocket change. When was the last time an 1804 cent was plucked out of change at Walmart, or for that matter an 1855 cent? If an 1804 cent did survive in circulation all these years, what grade is it in today? Almost poor? AG at the best? Unc moderns can be found in circulation as much as twelve or fourteen years old. These coins are gem sometimes. Before the state program gem quarters all the way back to 1981 were possible. Memorial cents can be found in unc even older and AU's right back to the first issue in 1959!

 

Collecting classics is a well traveled road. Not that there's anything wrong with that. When was the last time anyone found a new large cent? 1996? New moderns are found everyday and very few books have been published on them. One has to make each discovery himself in many cases. This adds greatly to the fun and excitement of these coins.

 

One can actually find most of the moderns in gem. Some of the classics don't even exist in unc, much less gem. Since they are attainable the prices are much much lower. Those who can't afford a pop-top or a gem modern can put together a nice choice set for next to nothing. Despite the low cost of such a set there will be many challenging coins in it.

 

When a modern needed for your collection is found there is much less need to slab it. Moderns have virtually no counterfeits, no doctored and altered coins, and very few that are AT. One can still safely purchase raw coins without the fear that he is losing most of the purchase price. One only needs to slab these coins if he intends to sell or put it in the registry. ...and of course most scarce (and many rare) moderns aren't worth the cost of slabbing anyway.

 

And as Braddick said, one of the most endearing things about moderns is the ability to find very valuable coins for very little money. This may not beat the romance, the history, or the huge fun of collecting them but most people find huge profits to be a turn-on whether it's from discovering the coins raw or from holding them during times of rapidly rising prices.

 

 

 

 

 

[TomB]

Excellent posts by one and all.

 

A remark was made about folks selling things that they don't collect and I find that to be true much of the time, however, I also find the opposite to occur with great frequency. I sell nicely toned coins and problem-free type. What do I collect? Nicely toned coins and problem-free type. This can lead to problems if I feel the need to replenish inventory with coins that I don't want to sell, but, I have enough discipline that this does not generally happen. Once in a while I will let a truly spectacular coin go, but again, there are only so many coins one can own and for only a certain length of time.

 

My numismatic philosophy is that you should buy what you like with money you can afford to lose. This holds well in all situations. There are three problems, for me, with the modern market. The first is the coins themselves as I do not like the designs on virtually any of them. This puts a severe damper on any enthusiasm for obtaining them. It's also simply a personal opinion of mine. The second is that I know a fair number of dealers who are willing to deal in moderns only as a one way market. That is, they will sell the coins they make or that they obtain in large deals, but, they will not buy the coins back. At least not at anything close to what might be considered "market value". This brings into question what is truly market value for these coins since there is such a resistance, from a certain percentage of those that sell them, to take them back. Lastly, however, is the idea of a grade shift in the third party certification services. A subtle shift might happen and has happened before. Since so many coins are so expensive only in extraordinarily high grades, and these grade ranges are exquisitely small, any shift within the ranges could play havoc with the populations. So, you may keep the MS69 coin in the holder, but, if a fraction of MS68 coins now end up in an MS69 holder you will then find a hard hit on your coin. This can happen in any niche of the coin market but is especially the case with moderns.

 

As for people buying them because they like them, heck, buy them. I have no problems with that.

[cladking]

 

There are three problems, for me, with the modern market. The first is the coins themselves as I do not like the designs on virtually any of them. This puts a severe damper on any enthusiasm for obtaining them. It's also simply a personal opinion of mine.

 

All designs are really an acquired taste. Virtually all the classic designs were bashed by the collectors of the day when they were issued. Moderns are no different and may actually be a harder taste to acquire for many people since they have so many legends and mottos. If you can't learn to like the design you may never be able to enjoy collecting it. This is a personal choice that everyone has to make.

 

The second is that I know a fair number of dealers who are willing to deal in moderns only as a one way market. That is, they will sell the coins they make or that they obtain in large deals, but, they will not buy the coins back. At least not at anything close to what might be considered "market value". This brings into question what is truly market value for these coins since there is such a resistance, from a certain percentage of those that sell them, to take them back.

 

Incredibly modern coin collecting is a niche market. While many shops have begun selling greater numbers of proof and mint sets and other raw moderns, the overall market is still highly specialized. It is also a very small market, especially from an overall value standpoint! There are not large numbers of any of the moderns changing hands. When dealers talk about activity at a coin show they don't talk about how moderns are doing, because there will be fewer modern dealers at most shows than there are world coin dealers or even token dealers. Obviously if you try to sell a great token to a bust half dealer you won't be offered the best price. Also with moderns there are still some available raw. If a dealer has $100 to spend he would rather acquire a raw replacement coin for one just sold than buy it back. This isn't much of a problem with the true modern rarities (high grade and other) because the difficulty in finding the coin raw is so high. But, as a niche market it is necessary to know where to sell for the best price and to "shop around" if you're buying.

 

Lastly, however, is the idea of a grade shift in the third party certification services. A subtle shift might happen and has happened before. Since so many coins are so expensive only in extraordinarily high grades, and these grade ranges are exquisitely small, any shift within the ranges could play havoc with the populations. So, you may keep the MS69 coin in the holder, but, if a fraction of MS68 coins now end up in an MS69 holder you will then find a hard hit on your coin. This can happen in any niche of the coin market but is especially the case with modern.

 

There is no less of a difference between one high grade and another in moderns than there is in the classics. The spread of prices may be greater in many cases but the grade spreads are the same. Regardless of how the grading companies grade the coins the best will always be the best and the just missed will always be the just missed. It is up to each individual to determine what characteristics he desires in a coin and to seek these coins out irrespective of their holders, just as it is for classic collectors.

[TomB]

 

Quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Lastly, however, is the idea of a grade shift in the third party certification services. A subtle shift might happen and has happened before. Since so many coins are so expensive only in extraordinarily high grades, and these grade ranges are exquisitely small, any shift within the ranges could play havoc with the populations. So, you may keep the MS69 coin in the holder, but, if a fraction of MS68 coins now end up in an MS69 holder you will then find a hard hit on your coin. This can happen in any niche of the coin market but is especially the case with modern.

 

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

 

There is no less of a difference between one high grade and another in moderns than there is in the classics. The spread of prices may be greater in many cases but the grade spreads are the same. Regardless of how the grading companies grade the coins the best will always be the best and the just missed will always be the just missed. It is up to each individual to determine what characteristics he desires in a coin and to seek these coins out irrespective of their holders, just as it is for classic collectors.

 

 

 

I'm going to have to disagree with your interpretation, and subsequent analysis, on this part of my post. The reason for this is that many modern coins are made to such high mint standards that, in order to achieve the super high gem grade, the coin must be nearly technically flawless. This results in grade range compression since the average quality is so high and the standard deviation of this quality so small. Therefore, since we are dealing with human graders, grade compression within grades coupled with small standard deviations between grades means that there is more of a chance of grade overlap for individual coins. The extension of this is a more likely "leakage" of coins in one grade making into another grade holder.

 

In contrast, the older classic coin series had far less rigorous standards in either their initial production quality or in their average quality. This allows for a fair amount of play within a grade range and, consequently, a slightly larger window for each grade. Certainly, there are many liner coins and many coins that would regrade differently if given the chance. However, the look of one grade compared to neighboring grades is more easily picked out. In other words, modern coinage and classic coinage are not graded the same.

 

What the above two paragraphs mean is that if there is a tiny shift in standard or reproducibility on the part of the third party certification services then the series with the tighter quality range within each grade will be affected more than the series with the larger range. This is why I think the modern market is more prone to a possible influx of coins into a higher grade.

 

The implied corollary to the paragraph in question is that most classic coinage series do not lose as much of a percentage in value when a coin is in a lower grade. True, they might lose more absolute value, but I think the percentage loss would be lower. Of course, everything is on a case-by-case basis and anyone could argue against these reasons just because of that.

 

[Leothelion]

If we could take a mixture of dates of 50 high grade state quarters that graded around MS65 or 66 but label them as MS69 coins, they would all find there way into a registry set. Why, because most new collectors don't know how to grade.

 

Leo

[gmarguli]

If we could take a mixture of dates of 50 high grade state quarters that graded around MS65 or 66 but label them as MS69 coins, they would all find there way into a registry set. Why, because most new collectors don't know how to grade.

 

If you ask the registry set people, then none of them would, because they buy coins and not plastic. In reality, most if not all would find their way into a registry set.

[braddick]

If we could take a mixture of dates of 50 high grade state quarters that graded around MS65 or 66 but label them as MS69 coins, they would all find there way into a registry set. Why, because most new collectors don't know how to grade.

 

Leo

 

Leo, You may be right, in general, but the two Collectors I've met who would pay the hugh premium for that PCGS MS69 State quarters DO know how to grade and are extremely picky too. If you were to place an "MS66" inside MS69 plastic, at least with these two, it would remain in that Dealer's showcase for a long, long time.

[cladking]

 

I'm going to have to disagree with your interpretation, and subsequent analysis, on this part of my post. The reason for this is that many modern coins are made to such high mint standards that, in order to achieve the super high gem grade, the coin must be nearly technically flawless.

 

Certainly this applies to most post 1972 proofs, all proof bullion, most modern commems, and a few other coins. It hardly applies to ANY of the regular issue coins like a 1988 cent, or a 1974 Ike. Indeed if one were to select collecting specialties simply on the basis of the range in grade, all collectors would be required to collect Ikes, or clad quarters. Many of these coins were issued by the mint in conditions which were simply appalling. Most 1966 quarters were struck by dies which were highly worn, the few that were struck by new dies generally had the dies badly misaligned. In any case virtually the entire mintage was then banged around at the mint and the fed and then unceremoniously dumped into circulation. This is where the vast majority of hese coins have been ever since. Though nowdays nearly 50% have been destroyed through attrition. What's left is highly worn and poorly struck. Many of the moderns are so poorly struck THAT THEY HAD LESS DETAIL THAN A VG WHEN THEY CAME OFF THE DIES. A 1969 quarter has yet to be graded by NGC above MS-64. Yes, MS-65's do exist for this coin, and it will stand head and shoulders above an MS-64 when it is graded.

 

 

 

[qoute]

This results in grade range compression since the average quality is so high and the standard deviation of this quality so small. Therefore, since we are dealing with human graders, grade compression within grades coupled with small standard deviations between grades means that there is more of a chance of grade overlap for individual coins. The extension of this is a more likely "leakage" of coins in one grade making into another grade holder.

 

In contrast, the older classic coin series had far less rigorous standards in either their initial production quality or in their average quality. This allows for a fair amount of play within a grade range and, consequently, a slightly larger window for each grade. Certainly, there are many liner coins and many coins that would regrade differently if given the chance. However, the look of one grade compared to neighboring grades is more easily picked out. In other words, modern coinage and classic coinage are not graded the same.

 

Again the opposite is true. Many of the moderns were produced with virtually no standards at all. In the early days of the moderns the mint was just trying to crank the coins out to end the coin shortage. They did everything in their power to discourage people from collecting. They even supported a bill in congress which would have essentially outlawed coin collecting. It's improbable they intentionally made the coins so poorly but they most assuredly had far lower standards than the mint in the old days.

 

This results in coins which vary over a very wide spectrum for most dates. Most examples fall at the extreme lower end of this spectrum. Anyone merely setting aside a roll of clad Ikes or other clad each and every year may have no gems. If there are gems it will be for only a few of the coins. By the same token anyone just setting aside mint sets over the years may have no varieties, will lack gems of some dates and will lack many dates all together. In order to have a collection of these coins someone has to set out with that intent. There have been very few of these coins set aside with intent, so for the few that do exist look for coins which tend strongly to the lower grades and an incredible lack of varieties.

What the above two paragraphs mean is that if there is a tiny shift in standard or reproducibility on the part of the third party certification services then the series with the tighter quality range within each grade will be effected more than the series with the larger range. This is why I think the modern market is more prone to a possible influx of coins into a higher grade.

 

The implied corollary to the paragraph in question is that most classic coinage series do not lose as much of a percentage in value when a coin is in a lower grade. True, they might lose more absolute value, but I think the percentage loss would be lower. Of course, everything is on a case-by-case basis and anyone could argue against these reasons just because of that.

 

Most of the classics which were saved in high grade were saved as result of people holding them for their metallic value. If not for this almost none would exist above Fine condition. Most of the classics (not all series) would grade MS-65 if they could be returned to their original condition. What holds large percentages of them from achieving this condition today is that they have had many decades to acquire surface defects and to slide around in collections until they are no longer uncs. It is only this which makes their apparent range larger. It is not real range in quality but range in preservation.

 

The grading services may well decide to damage their business tomorrow by playing around with grading, but this will not affect the number of MS-65 '69 quarters nor will it affect the number of gems of any coin which has survived to the present day whether it was minted twenty years ago or two hundred years ago.

[truthteller]

High grade moderns are fun to collect. The major concern comes as to evaluating their worth. At Long Beach and Pre auctions, I saw these events:

 

1) I sat through an auction of high grade modern proofs, many were buybacks at half of estimates, many were sold at half of estimates

 

2) I sat at a dealers table who lamented that modern high grade proof coinage was soft at best, while top pop and high grade mint state were stable

 

3) I witnessed a dealer offer another dealer 20-25 very high grade modern, with one dealer saying the market was very soft, had no clientel for them and offered the advice to stay way from that end of the market

 

4) I conversed with another modern dealer who stated the maket was heading lower because the market for high grade modern proofs was saturated.

 

Now, in all those interactions, PRICES of the coins were never mentioned. The conclusion was that there was no liquid market for this end of the coin hobby. So, if there is little or no demand, why justify a high price, if any price at all. I venture to say, these modern proofs have topped out and gloomier times lay ahead. Mint state coinage is another matter.

 

TRUTH

[Leothelion]

If we could take a mixture of dates of 50 high grade state quarters that graded around MS65 or 66 but label them as MS69 coins, they would all find there way into a registry set. Why, because most new collectors don't know how to grade.

 

Leo

 

Leo, You may be right, in general, but the two Collectors I've met who would pay the hugh premium for that PCGS MS69 State quarters DO know how to grade and are extremely picky too. If you were to place an "MS66" inside MS69 plastic, at least with these two, it would remain in that Dealer's showcase for a long, long time.

 

You know it too! As for the Jefferson series, Corso doesn't collect junk and I'm confident Overby doesn't either and there are others, in every series. But taking it up notch, there are many who won't pay the stupid money.

 

Leo

[TomB]

I don't think I will write much about this from here on in this thread as I have written in terms of generalities and have stated such, however, most of the debate has been involving specific coinage issues. I will not debate specific issues because of the capability of people to mold an argument or defense very easily if it involves only one data point or only a collection of chosen data points. In science, we have a saying for this type of reasoning and it goes something like-

 

"You can get any experiment to give you any result you want as long as you adjust the parameters enough."

 

The thrust of my assertion in question is that the average technical quality of coinage has increased in the modern era with respect to classic coinage. If one cannot agree with this, then, any debate is moot as there is no common ground to agree on.

 

I also believe that some of the statements made about classic coinage are ludicrous but will take them as opinion rather than as an understanding of fact.

 

That's all.

[LucyBop]

"You can get any experiment to give you any result you want as long as you adjust the parameters enough."

 

Interesting.... We had to do some 'minor tweaking' to get some of our Manufacturing tools to match the POR tools in our research and development fabs... It is diffulcult to say the least to match process parameters when dealing with fingerprint data from sea level vs a mile up.

[cladking]

People don't collect much of anything scientifically or by arbitrary definitions. Who here collects classics. All classics nothing but classics all the time. Likely no one. People specialize and gravitate to what interests them. It may be gold, or colonials, or Barber coins, but very few people just collect every single coin made during some era. Just as considerations about gold have no bearing on those who collect collonials, why should statements that apply to some moderns affect all moderns. Dividing coins between classic and modern is really pretty arbitrary in the first place. As proof I'd submit that most people have their own definition of modern and classic.

 

There is no sense in saying that just because mint technology and processes have improved in the past 150 years that one shouldn't collect any newer coins because they are overpriced or that all newer coins are made better than older coins. Modern collectors are looking at these coins on a case by case basis. They are finding some are indeed made much more nicely and to more exacting standards than the classics. Many find these coins attractive for just this reason! Others are finding some coins are made horribly, far worse than most of the classics. They find it challenging to search out well made pieces for a collection. They find it fun to assemble sets of these coins that most people believe are common in all grades.

 

There have been many improvements in mint technology, there's no question about this. Much of this improvement has been used to squeeze more coinage out of each dollar the mint spends. People haven't paid a lot of attention to how circulating coins looked for the last few decades so why shouldn't the mint strike three times as many coins from dies that now last twice as long? In fact if the relief is lowered then maybe four or five times as many coins can be made from a die. Most presses now are quad presses which strike coins at very high rates, but when a die wears out the whole press is out of production until it's changed, so maybe wait till the end of the shift to change it.

 

None of any of this means that people should collect thse coins. This is a personal decision that each collector has to make for himself. While very few have decided to collect moderns they have found that many of them are far more difficult to find than they had believed. They have found that to purchase some of these can cost more than many non-collectors feel comfortable with. And they have found that few are going to give them any words of encouragement.

[msmhappy]

kind of like the huge sellers and promoters of slabbed high grade modern coins on the other boards and then they totally buy and collect something else all together

 

if they are so into moderns then why dont they put their money where their mouth is so to speak?

 

and in reality there is no modern bashing it is a no brainer

 

what the problem is the slabbed plastic holders that hold such coins where if the modern coins most all of them ultra high grade were broken out of their respective holders their value would plummet hugely immensively and so with their demand

 

i do not think there are any modern bashers on the boards

 

not modern coins per say just those modern coins in slabbed ultra high grade plastic holders thast create 80% 90%95% if not more of the coins value

 

 

sincerely michael

 

Michael...

 

Ask yourself, "Havent we discussed this before?" Well?

 

mike

 

-----------------

 

dont forget! collect proof sets!!!!!!!!!!!!

[msmhappy]

 

 

Sorry!!! forgot to mention SUPPLY AND DEMAND!!!!!!!! AGAIN!!!!!!!!

 

 

Mike

 

---------------------------------------

 

dont forget! collect proof sets!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[DonHeath]

Interesting thread, and I think all of the posters approach this topic from differing points of view with valid perspectives. I collect some moderns, and frequently buy them in or out of a holder. Some of the coins that have similar value to me in plastic or out are any 30s Washington quarters, many full step Jeffs, cameo proofs through 71, 76 silver coins, Ikes in Gem, certain mint state coins through 72, and a personal favorite - SMS coins and sets. I buy them based on my opinion of the grade, sometimes in spite of the plastic. I prefer raw, because generally speaking, the coins are less expensive. I would happily buy a gem 72-P Ike for a premium. Although I guess 70 grade coins exist, they aren't meaningful to me, but I believe I can see an MS-67 and recognize it in the series I am familiar with.

I guess the point of that paragraph is that there are a few collectors that collect these things without regard to the plastic.

 

I think Michaels observation is quite valid as it relates to those who collect without an understanding of what they are buying. It is true, just not universally true.

 

TomB made another point that I believe quite accurate. He said

In other words, modern coinage and classic coinage are not graded the same.

I agree fully. One of the precepts of market grading is that grades given are relative to the known population of a particular date/mm. Simply put, graders are forever influenced by the nicest examples they've seen, and store those coins away as points of reference when grading others of the same date/mm. Since many of the moderns have been seen in more pristine condition, the grading range is probably compressed for those coins, although I never thought of it in those terms. MS-67 and above are far less common in earlier coinage.

 

Cladking is certainly correct when he observes certain moderns were manufactured with an absolute disregard for production values, and are absolutely horrible in mint condition. I know from previous conversations with him that he values strike highly, and with regard to those issues, he is absolutely correct. Many classic and semi-classic coins are similarly notoriously weak strike.

 

Truthteller said proof coins were soft, but MS coins were solid. With the exception of a few difficult date dcams, they aren't on my list.

 

Not to miss the point of the thread, I think there are a few collectors (Greg, Braddick, Cladking, almost everyone on this thread) who legitimately value moderns based on hands-on experience and lots of hard work. I don't think they are so different than other collectors of other series. It's just experience. Those who buy collections rather than build them will always pay for the labor required to obtain the coins. In some cases they get a bargain, and in many cases they grossly overpay. JMO

[michael]

lucybob i did not edit any of my original comments at all!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

that is not true and i do not apprecaite you making judgments that are simply not true

 

i never defamed you with unkind words nor with untruths if you do not like what i say that does not make me anythintg bad just please do not make personal specific attacks on my personal character

 

that in effect doesnot show you in a good light

 

keep to the coin opinions not to personal attacks

 

i mean to try to insuniate that i changed my post is just not true if you are mad at what i say then say so and give your thoughts but please leave my integrity out of it especially so if you do not agree with me why attack me??

 

and all that tells me is i really hit a nerve and since you cant attack what i say you attavck me personally? i mean lucy it is only a coin nothing personal against you

 

what i did as you can tell if you had my original post is correct all my spelling mistakes

 

i think many classic coins if broken out of their respective holders will bring raw way way way over their face value

 

but i bet a modern state quarters quarter if cracked out willnot bring much much closer to its face value then the classic coin that is my point

 

 

sincerely michael

[LucyBop]

it ain't lucybob, and yes you did edit your remarks.... I wasn't getting personal till now... your a liar, you edited them and you know you did....

 

your edit really didn't change your meaning, you just further was clarifying your point of view... but you did edit them.... I was replying, then all of the sudden, i replied to different remarks.......

 

why so angry? cause you can't do no wrong? baloney!

[michael]

the only problem i have is with modern coins that are slabbed in ultra high grade holders WHERE IF YOU BROKE THE COIN OUT OF THE HOLDER

 

it practicALLY LOSES ALL OF ITS VALUE

 

i do not hate any coins nor modern coins

 

 

the sellers are praying on peoples passions and no matter if these people are buying these coins even if they do not realize they are buying holders it still doenot sit right with me

 

also these sellers make no markets in many modern coins they sell and knowingly sell that if broken out of their respective holders will basically lose most all of their value

 

their actions say it all

 

that is the only thing that leaves a bad taste in my mouth

 

sincerely michael

 

 

 

 

again i have no problems with moderns as some are really rare collectible and growing demand coins in ms/pf 65 66 67 and may not exist in 68 69 70

 

what i have a problem is with modern coins that are basically common coins that are valued under 20 dollars if raw but are valued over 400 500 600 1000 2000 3000 4000 5000 if slabbed in the right holder with the right grade

 

 

i mean think about it would nt this make you scared?

it would me!!

 

 

 

but it certianly leaves much to be desiered to me

 

 

how many of a common modern coin would you want to buy and hold !!!!! in your collection would you want to buy right now where the coin is worth 100 300 500 1000 or more in the holder but out of the holder is worth around face value??

 

 

if you can honestly say you would well good for you !!

for me the proof is in the pudding so to speak actions speak louder than words are sellers collecting what they are selling?

 

 

now yes i understand some sell one thing and collect another i am not bothered by that

 

what i am bothered by is some sellers are selling slabbed coins for hundreds to thousands of dollars that if broken out of their respective holders are basically worth face value in todays market!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

and i bet the coins as per the above are not being bought by these sellers for these prices and put away by them

 

 

sincerely michael

 

 

[LucyBop]

[michael]

lucy you personally attacked me and why more personal comments? coins on here have nothing to do with right or wrong

 

all i stated was that lots of coins in high grade holders modern coins that many if broken out of their respective holders are worth basi=cally face value from hindreds in thier holdered state

 

i never said i was always right i never said you were always right or wrong?? just my opinion

 

why this always right hnig? i guess you must be stewing over many things i said on here?? well what can i say?

 

i mean then why post off topic about me personally

 

lets talk about the coins!

 

sincerely michael