Opinions requested: 1811 Capped Bust half (CAUTION: dialuppers)

[James_OldeTowne]

I am having a lot of difficulty calling the grade on this coin. I really want to call it UNC, as I just can't find any real signs of "rub" anywhere. The mint luster fully traverses all fields. However, I think you can tell from the image that the luster does not really appear on the raised portions of the design, such as Liberty's portrait, and the central shield area of the reverse.

 

Is it AU-58 with a good strike? Or MS-60 with a lousy strike? AU-59??

 

Does it really matter? After all, I think it's a pretty nice looking coin.

 

(By the way, it's O-104a, a "large 8" variety)

 

 

James

[RGT]

That's a beautiful coin.

 

In the image it looks like some scuffs around the neckline. I can't really see wear in the image but you are correct that the luster doesn't seem to show on Liberty's face or on the eagle. Is the flatness in portions of the hair normal, or caused from a weak strike? I'm talking about the area just above the ear and just behind the "Y" of LIBERTY. You can see I don't really know much about these either.

 

I think I may have to use one of Michaels favorite grades and call it an AU62.

[kryptonitecomics]

Au58 and quite lovely

[Hoot]

Given the appearance of the attending fields, I'd have to call it an AU58, and also a bit weakly struck. Very pretty.

 

Hoot

[stman]

It's a nice looker. Personally I wouldn't call it mint-state if the luster is broken as you mentioned. There has to be a reason the luster is broken. Hope you don't mind me posting my 1811. This piece while not completely original has many positive attributes that makes me really enjoy this coin.

 

It is completely mint-state with absolutely no wear/rub/cabinet friction. Save for a few stars the strike is sharp and amazing. With complete un-broken frosty luster that is quite eye-appealing IMO. It being an early date just adds to it.

It also has a nice textured surface to it that can be seen a bit in the image I've provided.

 

[James_OldeTowne]

((( Personally I wouldn't call it mint-state if the luster is broken as you mentioned. There has to be a reason the luster is broken. )))

 

This is one of the problems that has me confounded! As many of you well know, early type-two caps, in particular those struck from 1809 - 1813, display inconsistent and uneven striking quality. In particular, there are many cases where the high points of the detail are basically not struck at all. So if a coin was never struck in a certain area, then by definition, it cannot have mint luster there.

 

I think that this is the case with my 1811. Liberty's cheek, and the curl behind her ear, never came into contact with the die - so how could there be mint luster? I think this is part of the reason we see coins with apparent "rub" in MS-62, 3, 4 and yes, even MS-65 or higher slabs.

 

The 1811 that stman posted IS well struck, so the high points DID come into contact with the die, and thus have unbroken luster. And by the way, I think it's a fantastic coin.

 

I'm always reminded of this coin, which though not "fully" struck, is "completely" struck such that there are zero luster breaks, even on the high-points:

 

 

Anyhow, thanks for the interesting discussion.

 

James

[Mozin]

Pretty Bust Half Dollar.

 

The strike is very weak, even considering the late die state. You say the luster is full in the fields, but not on the portrait.

 

I would not be surprised to see NGC give it AU58. My best guess is PCGS would say at most AU55. So, submit this one to NGC.

[stman]

James_EarlyUS, I understand your point concerning whether it was ever actually struck in the areas of question. Notice I said....Personally I wouldn't call it mint-state? It just looks like it indeed has rub even considering the weak strike.

 

No matter though as I'm not one that is obsessed over grades. I like these Bust halves for what they are. Price is the determining factor... not grade as far as I'm concerned.

[James_OldeTowne]

I recorded it in my database as MS-60, but in light of what you good gentlemen have discussed, I've decided to change it to AU-58+. I really hate using "plus" signs in grades, but considering all the confusion there is today between AU-55 through MS-62, I guess it's the best way I can think of to indicate to someone that the grade is just a starting point, and that the coin has to be looked at in whole to figure out its true value.

 

Thanks for the terrific discussion!!

 

James

[EZ_E]

 

 

Dammit, son! That is one of the most beautiful Bust Halves that I have ever seen! It was love at first site! I liked James' at first but it is now like the chubby sister to the prom queen.

[stman]

I guess it's the best way I can think of to indicate to someone that the grade is just a starting point, and that the coin has to be looked at in whole to figure out its true value.

 

 

James, Exactly my point and I completely agree. I have enjoyed this discussion as well!! It's a nice looker, and of course being an early date makes it that much better. Did I mention I love the early dates? EZ_E.... thanks for the good words on my 1811 as well!