Once again, NGC made good on their promise....

[James_OldeTowne]

I guess this may be old news, but I just got an eMail from a friend "across the street" regarding this thread about the infamous Peace dollar:

 

web page

 

Happy reading, and kudos to NGC .

 

James

[jtryka]

For those of us who don't have the time or patience to read through 10 pages of idiocy to glean the few worthwile kernels, could you summarize what happened?

[gmarguli]

I'll try:

 

1) Seller of ATed coins on eBay sells a Peace dollar for $55.

2) Possible missing step.

3) Dealer has the coin in his case in Long Beach. It's unknown if he got it off eBay - that's why there is a possible missing step.

4) Another dealer (ex-PCGS grader) buys it raw.

4a) Coin apparently becomes more toned before it reaches step 5. Not known right now who helped it along.

5) Same dealer submits it to NGC at the Long Beach show.

6) Dealer shops it and Anaconda buys it.

7) Anaconda posts it on eBay and the PCGS forums.

8) People post it is a monster.

9) Braddick finds a not so old eBay auction for this coin from the AT dealer.

10) People who posted it was a monster now say they knew it was AT all along.

11) NGC bashers move in and vilify NGC.

12) Many other people post they knew it was AT, but said nothing. They vilify NGC, praise PCGS as they'd never have slabbed it, and then they go back to their registry set of state quarters.

13) Anaconda sends the coin and the info to NGC.

14) NGC takes the coin off the market.

[IGWT]

(1) eBay seller gototoningcoins sells Peace $1 for $55;

 

(2) Coin passes hands and reaches dealer who submits to NGC;

 

(3) NGC grades coin MS-66*;

 

(4) Anaconda buys coin (and story) from dealer and lists it for $14,000;

 

(5) Detective Pat Braddick discovers and discloses that the coin listed by Anaconda is the same coin sold by gototoningcoins for $55;

 

(6) Anaconda seeks redress from NGC (and maybe others) on the grounds that the coin is AT.

 

Edited to Add: Didn't see Greg's version before I posted. His explanation is much more fun to read.

[TerrapinWill]

Does anyone know approx. how much NGC paid to take the coin off the market?

[CTcollector]

You guys are much more forgiving than myself. The coin and many, many, similar AT coins should never be holdered. There will be no need to the right thing after the fact if you do (or try to do) the right thing always. If you want to certify and attach your name to a hyped up POS - than that is a reflection on you and your business model and standards. Something like that Peace Dollar should never get by 3-4 professionals. Someone should of questioned it and the company should err on the side of caution. Yes - I am a TPG basher. But I am an equal opportunity basher. NGC and PCGS both have their issues with AT. (More so today than ever in the past). Its hurting the hobby and enabling the slimeballs to take advantage of innocent and inexperienced collectors. $14k (with the holder) or $55 without. People, right or wrong, put trust in NGC and PCGS holders and expect them to represent something. If the TPG's keep this up, sooner or later their product will mean nothing. Its their choice to make.

[Stanley]

Quote:

4a) Coin apparently becomes more toned before it reaches step 5. Not known right now who helped it along.

 

 

 

Maybe it was reheated

[jtryka]

Thanks for the synopsis Greg!

[Tradedollarnut]

I saw the coin at Long Beach - it was blatant POS toning that never should have been in a holder.

 

I, too, am an equal opportunity basher as I saw a $200k coin in a PCGS holder that was AT [in my opinion].

[TerrapinWill]

So no one has any idea of how much it cost NGC to remove the coin from the market? Or did I miss that info in the linked thread?

[James_OldeTowne]

For the particular issue I was focusing on, here's how I summarize it:

 

(1) NGC certifies a high-grade Peace dollar with wild toning

 

(2) someone buys the Peace dollar, then gets proof that it is AT

 

(3) Peace dollar sent back to NGC for appearance review

 

(4) NGC realizes the toning is actually AT, and that they mistakenly encapsulated it

 

(5) NGC does the honorable thing and takes the coin off the market, making the buyer whole in the process

 

This is perfectly in line with how NGC honorably handled my re-engraved large cent, and totally opposite (in a good way) to the way PCGS botched up the infamous Norweb Hibernia. I just can't say enough about how well NGC has stood behind their guarantee.

 

James

[IGWT]

You guys are much more forgiving than myself.

I don't see anything particularly forgiving in my description of the events.

 

The coin and many, many, similar AT coins should never be holdered.

I know that this isn't what you meant, CT, but your statement implies that there are some AT coins that are good enough to fool the experts. A lot of the ire seems to be attributable to the fact that the Peace $1 was an obvious AT job. (Not that I can tell the difference.) Is it any more acceptable -- or excusable -- for the TPGs to holder the really good fakes?

 

If the TPG's keep this up, sooner or later their product will mean nothing

Doesn't NGC's action (taking the coin off the market) demonstrate just the opposite, i.e., the substantial value/protection of its services?

[Tradedollarnut]

I know that this isn't what you meant, CT, but your statement implies that there are some AT coins that are good enough to fool the experts.

 

There are. Or at least are good enough to be market acceptable. There are plenty of AT and enhanced coins in major TPG holders.

[IGWT]

someone buys the Peace dollar, then decides that it looks AT

 

C'mon, James . . . that's a major revision. The owner of the coin didn't "decide" that it looks AT. Braddick proved it; and, without Pat's work, the owner most likely would have sold the AT beast to a collector for big NT money.

 

I would be much more sympathetic if a collector ended up holding the coin. And I think that's the point that CT makes very well. NGC should be more concerned about keeping fakes out of holders for the benefit of collectors than taking them off the market to protect dealers.

 

What result if a collector presented the coin to NGC under its guarantee five years after purchase without the evidence that Braddick dug up? Happy ending?

[IGWT]

I know that this isn't what you meant, CT, but your statement implies that there are some AT coins that are good enough to fool the experts.

 

There are. Or at least are good enough to be market acceptable. There are plenty of AT and enhanced coins in major TPG holders.

 

Accepting the premise means that you have to answer the question that follows: "Is it any more acceptable -- or excusable -- for the TPGs to holder the really good fakes?"

[Tradedollarnut]

Accepting the premise means that you have to answer the question that follows: "Is it any more acceptable -- or excusable -- for the TPGs to holder the really good fakes?"

 

Don't know. I just try to limit my exposure. I've owned coins that as my knowlege of the series grew I was sure were messed with and I got rid of them. I currently own a coin that's pictured in a mid 1990's catalog as 100% white and now has some rim toning - yet spent most of the intervening time in a major TPG holder. Did it spend time in an album or was it 'done' in the holder? Don't know, and I guess it doesn't really matter as each is just a 'degree' on the slippery slope. I try to buy coins that are at least believable as natural ... and pass on coins even in major TPG holders that are questionable in my mind.

[James_OldeTowne]

IGWT, you're right. The coin was proved to be AT. Revision noted!

 

James

[CTcollector]

I know that this isn't what you meant, CT, but your statement implies that there are some AT coins that are good enough to fool the experts.

 

There are. Or at least are good enough to be market acceptable. There are plenty of AT and enhanced coins in major TPG holders.

 

Accepting the premise means that you have to answer the question that follows: "Is it any more acceptable -- or excusable -- for the TPGs to holder the really good fakes?"

 

IGWT - I'll try to put this as delicately as possible as I like this place and would prefer to stick around. In my opinion, I don't think these AT jobs are getting by on accident (this is directed at both companies). If most collectors can see this a mile away, a number of professionals looking at the same coin should be able to spot it at arms length. Sure - mistakes happen and some really good fakes will get by despite best efforts by the TPG's. If we only experienced a really good fake getting by here and there, I would not be as adamant. But here is my question back to you - are we getting best effort around AT from the TPG's ?

 

If collectors lose confidence in TPG's, the ripple effect will be that dealers will lose sales, and TPG's will lose submissions. And all this just to financially reward the doctors. Its a bad business model that will ultimately be self destructive.

 

Regarding my lead in point from my last post - it wasn't directed at you. I got the feeling that NGC should be commended for buying back the coin from other comments that were made. Maybe noble as a stand alone event - but the point I was trying to make is that it should never get to that point.

[gmarguli]

If collectors lose confidence in TPG's, the ripple effect will be that dealers will lose sales, and TPG's will lose submissions. And all this just to financially reward the doctors. Its a bad business model that will ultimately be self destructive.

 

The average collector can't grade. Sure they can tell a VF from an AU, but they can't tell a VF20 from a VF30, much less an MS66 from an MS67. This industry now survives on the TPGs. Without them, we'd lose a lot of collectors who can now just buy a coin without having to know anything about it. Collectors won't lose enough confidence in the major services to have any impact. They can't afford to as they have no back-up.

[IGWT]

And all this just to financially reward the doctors.

 

The alleged doctor in this case sold the coin for $55. The dealer in this case listed the coin for $14,000. Tell me again who's reaping the financial reward.

 

Edited to Add: I agree with your sentiments.

[CTcollector]

And all this just to financially reward the doctors.

 

The alleged doctor in this case sold the coin for $55. The dealer in this case listed the coin for $14,000. Tell me again who's reaping the financial reward.

 

Edited to Add: I agree with your sentiments.

 

We are talking semantics. Whether it was the first doctor, the second doctor, the middleman, or the seller that was set to profit the most is anyone's guess.

[IGWT]

We are talking semantics. Whether it was the first doctor, the second doctor, the middleman, or the seller that was set to profit the most is anyone's guess.

 

You're right.