Challenge No. 2 (Still not eBay, not TPGs, not Toning)

[IGWT]

You'll see in the photo below of a J-489 that lines bisect the denticles running from about K5 to K15. I've never seen this before, and I'm wondering if anyone knows the cause. I had assumed that these lines were impressed by the die; but, I don't see the lines in the denticles of the -490 & -491 pictured in ANR's current auction catalogue. Hmmmm. Does anyone have any thoughts?

 

 

Also, I'm finding it difficult to locate any numismatic resource that explains denticulation as part of the minting process during the mid-nineteenth century. Any suggestions?

[skippy]

I've been asking around to try and get answers to those questions. The best lead I had was to send them to Gallery Mint. They have not yet responded, alas.

 

I have gotten a vague reply from another source that said that the Gallery Mint had built some sort of denticle device that simultaneously punched a denticle and a centering mark for the next denticle over.

 

I am not sure that those lines are missing in the ANR photo of J-490. If I look at the photo with a magnifier I sort of see them. The lines are too thin for the screening process used in the printing the photos to do a good job showing them, and the photos are too small. Why don't you send an email to Frank Van Valen and ask him if the coins show the lines?

 

Howard

 

P.S. I went over to uspatterns.com to see if I could see these lines on the coins they have photographed, but all I see is the same photo as above! :-)

[IGWT]

Why don't you send an email to Frank Van Valen and ask him if the coins show the lines?

 

I e-mailed Frank 11 days ago. No response yet. Let me know what you hear from Gallery Mint.

[kranky]

Very interesting! This is the first I've ever heard or seen of those lines in the denticles.

 

I wonder if those lines were applied in the process of preparing dies (as suggested, to help center the denticles) but were to be removed prior to striking coins.

 

I also wonder if it's related to having the motto started too far to the right (as the remnant of the T in the field shows), then corrected.

[Mozin]

You fellows are getting me interested in Shield Nickels again.

[Newmismatist]

See if you can find out if they are INCUSE on the coin - which means they were raised on the Die - which is my guess - I say this because they only appear on a portion of the denticles - which would lead me to believe that they were ground & polished off the other denticles on the die, but someone forgot to finish the job.

 

Conversely, If they are raised on the coin, they would be incuse on the die and they may have occurred in the hubbing process (assuming the denticles are hubbed on the Die) which would mean they were raised on the hub and should have been ground off and polished BEFORE the hubbing process - either way - looks like a means of locating the denticles properly - like a jig that would keep them all properly spaced as each denticle is located on the die (or master hub).

 

As this was a pattern, they may have been less careful about this process as they were not planning on releasing the coins into general circulation.

 

Interesting.

[skippy]

The lines on the denticles of the coin in question are incuse on the coin, therefore in relief on the die.

 

Therefore, it is not reasonable to suppose that they are there as a guide to centering the denticles since it is not possible to scribe a RAISED line as a guide.

 

As far as I know, denticles were not hubbed on shield nickels - they had some kind of jig that allowed them to punch denticles into the master die. (This makes much more logical sense too, sculpting all those denticles on a master hub would have been a real pain.)

[IGWT]

You fellows are getting me interested in Shield Nickels again.

Tom -- Excellent! Our discussion is also relevant to other series produced during this era.

 

Ron -- You're right; the lines are incuse, which makes the explanation all the more difficult for the reason that Howard provides. Good observations and ideas. Maybe we'll arrive at a definitive answer some day.

 

As far as I know, denticles were not hubbed on shield nickels - they had some kind of jig that allowed them to punch denticles into the master die. (This makes much more logical sense too, sculpting all those denticles on a master hub would have been a real pain.)

 

Howard -- I also tend to think that the work was done on the master dies, but that's little more than a WAG on my part. Do you know of any resources that discuss denticulation as part of the minting process?

[skippy]

Howard -- I also tend to think that the work was done on the master dies, but that's little more than a WAG on my part. Do you know of any resources that discuss denticulation as part of the minting process?

 

The only thing I've heard is second hand information that Gallery Mint had created some sort of jig for punching denticles, and that said jig punched one denticle and an alignment mark for the next denticle at the same time. Gallery Mint supposedly produced this after researching the possible ways of achieving denticles, and believe that they have reproduced the mint's technique. But I know of no documentation.

 

I wrote to Gallery Mint some time ago for more info. Mike Ellis wrote back to me that he would ask Ron Landis, but have heard nothing further.

 

Boy, would I pay real money for an authoritative reference on mint procedures in the 1860s that covered die making in detail!

[skippy]

You fellows are getting me interested in Shield Nickels again.

 

Another one successfully infected, heh heh. Or should I say reinfected.