Is This Situation Unethical?

[Die Varieties]

Here's the situation (yes -- it's a true story):

 

A few weeks ago I attended our annual Coin Show here in Charleston, SC. I talked with a lot of dealers, catch-up on what's happening and like any collector -- browsed the bourse floor. Most of you know I'm involved with die varieties.

 

At this one dealers table I noticed he had some rolls of Lincoln cents sitting on the floor behind the table in a box. I asked him are any of those rolls for sale and he replied sure and handed me the box. There were a lot of different dates with most from the wheat years mixed with a few Memorials. I saw a 1943-D tubed roll marked BU. I asked him may I look at a few coins to get an idea of how they look. He said go for it and mentioned he would like to sell all of the rolls in the box.

 

Now to the main part of this story. After I opened the '43-D tube -- it was the 4th coin I quickly noticed it was the major 1943-D/D FS-019/RPM-1. I stopped right there and put the 4 coins right back into the tube and then put the tube back into the box with the other rolls. I asked him what he wanted for the whole box of rolls. He quoted a price and I paid him. After getting back home that evening -- there were a total of 6 of the '43-D/D FS-019 in that one tube. All looked to be around MS-64 with a couple Gem BU.

 

Now -- I didn't say anything to the dealer about that. I paid him his price and like the old saying goes, "Elvis has left the building!"

 

Was that wrong? Was that unethical? Should I told him what I saw?

 

Your thoughts?

[IGWT]

Was that wrong? Was that unethical?

 

Not unless the seller was relying on your expertise to set a fair price for the coins.

[HaydenTubbs]

Billy,it's called cherrypicking.

[rexcat]

Billy,it's called cherrypicking.

 

[IGWT]

I'm sure that Billy knows what cherrypicking is, Hayden. (And, btw, thanks for the hello across the street last night. ) The question challenges our assumptions. Why is it acceptable for an expert collector to rip an unknowledgeable dealer, but unacceptable for a dealer to rip a collector?

[GAB]

The question challenges our assumptions. Why is it acceptable for an expert collector to rip an unknowledgeable dealer, but unacceptable for a dealer to rip a collector?

 

I guess the answer is:

 

BOTH are acceptable - it's part of the business - like it or not !

 

The key thing is to NOT be the unknowledgeable party - dealer or collector.

Sometimes knowledge has to be paid for (the hard way!)

[James_OldeTowne]

Here's how I look at it, using an analogy.

 

You go to the grocery store to buy an apple. In the apple bin are some bruised ones, some average ones, and some that are blemishless. Which one do you buy? The nicest one, of course. Do you then tell the cashier that you picked out the best one, so she should charge you more? Of course not. You simply pay the asking price, and enjoy the fruits of your labor.

 

Now the other side of the analogy.

 

You own a grocery store, and need to stock the apple bin. You have a carton of apples from your supplier. So, do you put only the worst ones in the bin, and keep the rest for yourself? Of course not. You put all the apples in the bin, and let the shoppers decide which they want.

 

The seedy, crooked side of this analogy goes as follows:

 

You own a grocery store, and have just stocked the apple bin. A customer walks up and asks you which apple he should buy. Recognizing that he's an insufficiently_thoughtful_person, you inform him that you have a really "special" apple just for him, and sell him a watermelon at ten times the price. He doesn't know any better, but gladly pays you the money and walks out, enjoying what he thinks is a really big apple.

 

Works the same way for coins, in the scenario you described.

 

James

[HaydenTubbs]

I'm sure that Billy knows what cherrypicking is, Hayden. (And, btw, thanks for the hello across the street last night. ) The question challenges our assumptions. Why is it acceptable for an expert collector to rip an unknowledgeable dealer, but unacceptable for a dealer to rip a collector?

 

Well,I see a difference between say, a dealer ripping off a collector/dealer/heir by lying to him about the quality of his collection and giving him inadequate funds compared to a dealer selling a rare variety to a knowledgeable dealer/collecter as a normal piece at the dealer's price. Information is the name of the game when it comes to cherrpicking. Hey,coin dealers are coin dealers,their profession is buying and selling coins.They should know this stuff,if they don't it's their own fault for being uninformed... Plus it helps support these variety geeks like Billy.

 

On a side note,several dealers I've talked to don't bother to educate themselves on varieties simply because they really don't have any interest.However, I think it's more so because they just don't have the time.

 

And BTW Lou,make sure you don't venture across the street to much...we don't want you getting flamed!

[IGWT]

Here's how I look at it, using an analogy.

 

You go to the grocery store to buy an apple. In the apple bin are some bruised ones, some average ones, and some that are blemishless. Which one do you buy? The nicest one, of course. Do you then tell the cashier that you picked out the best one, so she should charge you more? Of course not. You simply pay the asking price, and enjoy the fruits of your labor.

 

An oysterman takes his harvest to the fishmonger. An experienced buyer knows by the size and shape of these oysters that many of them contain pearls worth thousands of dollars. He simply pays the oysterman's asking price of $100 and goes merrily on his way.

[cpm9ball]

If the dealer was totally ignorant, then he shouldn't be selling coins. If he was totally indifferent, then you shouldn't feel any remorse. If he was totally blind, I think you might have reason to tell him.

 

Chris

[MikeKing]

You know, you pose a very interesting question.

I believe what everyone else said is true.

I still wrote a three page discourse on this and started getting into the Bahagavad Gita, and talked to my partner about it and got into this whole legal/philosophical discussion. I decided to delete it before I posted it.

Bottom line, I think, is that you ask this question because you're a thoughtful person and don't want to do anything wrong. That's a good thing. If you still feel any negativity about this, then why not donate the money you make on it to charity.

[mhardin2413]

as a person interested in ethics, i'd like to weigh in. first, the grocer analogy is irrelevant. stick to the coins issue. you were buying 1943s and he was selling 1943s. had there been another coin in there, such as a 1909-s vdb, then you'd be getting something other than offered, and there would be a clear ethical violation. since the coins that you picked up were what were offered, there is no violation. as some of the earlier individuals have stated, you have cherry picked. and since the dealer clearly did not know what he had, he clearly did not pay any extra for them, ergo it is NOT his loss. it is no different than buying a slabbed coin that you are sure could grade up--do you tell the dealer that you should pay more--no. and since the varieties market is much more narrow, you are dealing with a commodity with considerably less demand (overall), and so dealers have less incentive to investigate all possibilities. knowledge is power and money, and so if you do have a FAIR advantage, take it. you have done fine, and i think all here congratulate you on using your expertise to make a fine

[EZ_E]

i think all here congratulate you on using your expertise to make a fine

bargain

 

I agree. You have spent years studying a topic that many neglect and it paid off for you. Your time is money so, in light of this, Good job.

[IGWT]

If the dealer was totally ignorant, then he shouldn't be selling coins. If he was totally indifferent, then you shouldn't feel any remorse. If he was totally blind, I think you might have reason to tell him.

 

Why is it right to take advantage of an ignorant person but wrong to take advantage of a blind person. Ignorance, after all, is a kind of blindness. What would your answer be if Billy had bought the coins from a member of his local coin club?

 

I still want to know why it is acceptable for an expert collector to rip a novice dealer, but unacceptable for a knowledgeable dealer to rip an unsuspecting collector? Let's think about this question the next time we scream about unethical dealers.

 

I guess the answer is: BOTH are acceptable - it's part of the business - like it or not!

 

That's just sad.

 

I still wrote a three page discourse on this and started getting into the Bahagavad Gita, and talked to my partner about it and got into this whole legal/philosophical discussion. I decided to delete it before I posted it.

 

I would have read it!

[EZ_E]

IGWT,

 

I'd certainly be the first to voice my objection if I thought the deal the least bit squirrelly but I feel that it was completely legit with no underhandedness. He merely gave a cursory glance at the product and felt that it met his needs as a collector. Afterall, one shouldn't be punished for knowledge.

 

 

 

i think all here congratulate you on using your expertise to make a fine

bargain

 

I agree. You have spent years studying a topic that many neglect and it paid off for you. Your time is money so, in light of this, Good job.

[IGWT]

I'd certainly be the first to voice my objection if I thought the deal the least bit squirrelly but I feel that it was completely legit with no underhandedness. He merely gave a cursory glance at the product and felt that it met his needs as a collector. Afterall, one shouldn't be punished for knowledge.

 

I am not saying that Billy did anything wrong. He raised an interesting topic for us to discuss. I'm pressing for a really convincing answer only because I need to ease my own conscience.

[errorist]

Man I cherrypick Ebay all the time how do you think I found all them PMMs.

[cpm9ball]

If the dealer was totally ignorant, then he shouldn't be selling coins. If he was totally indifferent, then you shouldn't feel any remorse. If he was totally blind, I think you might have reason to tell him.

 

Why is it right to take advantage of an ignorant person but wrong to take advantage of a blind person. Ignorance, after all, is a kind of blindness.

 

Ignorance can be corrected. Blindness can't!

 

What would your answer be if Billy had bought the coins from a member of his local coin club?

 

Although I don't belong to any coin clubs, I would imagine that the motivation for doing so would be to exchange knowledge and learn. Ripping one of the members of your own club would be like stealing from your neighbor and I don't think Billy would do either. But we shouldn't compare a coin club to a coin show where dealers are there for the sole purpose of making money.

 

I still want to know why it is acceptable for an expert collector to rip a novice dealer, but unacceptable for a knowledgeable dealer to rip an unsuspecting collector?

 

The only thing unacceptable in either case is when the expert collector or the knowledgeable dealer has lied to the other person. Billy didn't lie to the dealer. The dealer didn't even ask him what he was looking for and if he had found it. The dealer was guilty for being indifferent to what Billy was looking for and Billy was guilty of knowing what he was looking for.

 

Let's think about this question the next time we scream about unethical dealers.

 

I don't think that Billy said anywhere that the dealer was a novice and I don't know how we got on the subject of unethical dealers. But I do know that I have read over and over and over and over again on these boards that one should learn before they buy. The same holds true for selling. How many times have we read, here, about some insufficiently_thoughtful_person eBay seller that didn't know squat but thought he did.

 

Here is an actual situation that happened to me at FUN. I was looking through a dealer's Morgans and kept saying (to my Mom), "No! No! No!" Finally the dealer asked me what I was looking for and I told him that I was looking for a particular doubled, die clash. He uttered a derisive laugh, said, "Yeah, right!, threw his hands in the air and turned away and ignored me for the remainder of the time I was there. To me, all he cared about was selling something and he wasn't even interested in learning anything. Now, tell me, do you think I should do him any favors?

 

 

Chris

[skippy]

Why is it acceptable for an expert collector to rip an unknowledgeable dealer, but unacceptable for a dealer to rip a collector?

 

Some dealers think it is perfectly acceptable to rip a collector. Some dealers belong to organizations like the ANA or PNG that have rules against ripping collectors.

 

No one forces us to buy from a particular dealer. It is incumbent upon the purchaser of any item (e.g., cars instead of coins) to do a certain amount of homework before purchasing, and to expect that he is open to exploitation if he won't do that homework.

 

Conversely, no one coerced the dealer into putting the price he put on the coins. Presumably the dealer made a profit and is happy with the deal. If he didn't do his homework on the coins, he can expect to be giving away a certain amount of profit. Perhaps that's even okay with him - it's a business decision that he isn't going to spend his time looking for varieties so long as he makes a profit on his deals.

 

The real question here is: Did the dealer know who Billy Crawford was, and if so, why in heck didn't he double-check the coins when Billy said he was interested? :-)

[cpm9ball]

I'm pressing for a really convincing answer only because I need to ease my own conscience.

 

Lou, if this is bothering you because of something you did, all you can do is learn from your mistake and move on. You can't change what has happened and your feeling of regret (?) tells me that you are on the right path.

 

Chris

[skippy]

I'm pressing for a really convincing answer only because I need to ease my own conscience.

 

If a dealer offered you a coin at a specific price and you chose to buy it, you are under no obligation to pay him more than he asks for it. If you got a good rip due to your superior knowledge, good for you and your conscience should be clean.

 

If you are talking about buying from a fellow collector, who is not a dealer, then I think the situation is different. In those cases I would opt to educate my fellow collector.

 

Sometimes dealers ask me direct questions about coins I am knowledgable about. I never withhold an answer to try and get a rip. In the long run, it pays off. Dealers get to know you and respect you and will offer you first shot at some nifty coins.

 

At lunch today a bunch of coin guys were discussing the same subject. One of the guys, who is a part time dealer, said bluntly "Never put anything for sale on your table that you don't understand."

 

You also know that I maintain a web site where I give away a great deal of my expertise. I figure it's there for any dealer who wants to look at it and learn. If the information is freely available and the dealer chooses not to avail himself of it, then I have no compunction whatsoever about cherrypicking him.

 

----

 

Let me throw out a question you didn't ask. Should we have any compunction about cherrypicking eBay sellers who obviously are not dealers?

 

It's not as clearcut to me what the answer should be in that case. There is a part of me that thinks that I should be willing to educate these people. (And I do try to do that when they make blatantly wrong claims for their coins.) But if I notify sellers that they have a rare variety, then that's not exactly fair to all of the other people who do their homework and discover the variety on their own. In the end, the best answer for me is that marketplace will usually not allow a rare variety to go too cheaply.

 

Whoa, there is one scenario under which a variety can go too cheaply - Buy It Now. In those cases, I figure the seller made an error in marketing judgment that it really isn't my problem to correct. If he wanted to know the true value of his coin, he wouldn't use BIN.

[James_OldeTowne]

((( as a person interested in ethics, i'd like to weigh in. first, the grocer analogy is irrelevant. stick to the coins issue. you were buying 1943s and he was selling 1943s. had there been another coin in there, such as a 1909-s vdb, then you'd be getting something other than offered,)))

 

Following my previous analogy, this would be like going to the store to buy apples, and discovering that a couple of peaches had accidentally fallen into the apple bin. If you buy the peaches, you should pay the price on the peaches, even if you did pick them out of the apple bin.

 

The question to me is simply whether or not you should pay more for nicer apples. I don't think you should, since they are simply priced per pound, and the grocer is comfortable with that, knowing full well that some will be nicer than others.

 

James

[TerrapinWill]

Here's the situation (yes -- it's a true story):

 

A few weeks ago I attended our annual Coin Show here in Charleston, SC. I talked with a lot of dealers, catch-up on what's happening and like any collector -- browsed the bourse floor. Most of you know I'm involved with die varieties.

 

At this one dealers table I noticed he had some rolls of Lincoln cents sitting on the floor behind the table in a box. I asked him are any of those rolls for sale and he replied sure and handed me the box. There were a lot of different dates with most from the wheat years mixed with a few Memorials. I saw a 1943-D tubed roll marked BU. I asked him may I look at a few coins to get an idea of how they look. He said go for it and mentioned he would like to sell all of the rolls in the box.

 

Now to the main part of this story. After I opened the '43-D tube -- it was the 4th coin I quickly noticed it was the major 1943-D/D FS-019/RPM-1. I stopped right there and put the 4 coins right back into the tube and then put the tube back into the box with the other rolls. I asked him what he wanted for the whole box of rolls. He quoted a price and I paid him. After getting back home that evening -- there were a total of 6 of the '43-D/D FS-019 in that one tube. All looked to be around MS-64 with a couple Gem BU.

 

Now -- I didn't say anything to the dealer about that. I paid him his price and like the old saying goes, "Elvis has left the building!"

 

Was that wrong? Was that unethical? Should I told him what I saw?

 

Your thoughts?

 

he was a dealer, with a table at a show?? dont see any problem with this. it's no differnt than cherypicking AH Kennedys from 1964 Proof sets. One persons junk is anothers treasure.

[Bruceswar]

now take your apple analogy and say a green one which is priced 10% higher gets mixed with the red ones but you get them all for the red price is that ok?

[XpipedreamR]

A quick check of the Coneca site shows about 14 million 43-D varieties. I understand that yours is a more notable variety, but a lot of people really couldn't care less. I gather from your user name that you may be a little biased in your interest in these

 

Apparently, this seller was uninterested or even unaware of the possibility of varieties. You have a special interest in and have acquired a specialized knowledge of die varieties.

 

Since it's "all business," I am wondering what would have happened if you had informed the dealer of what you found, and, perhaps, he had decided to hold on to those rolls. How would he have compensated you? Because at that point you're essentially working as an expert consultant in his business venture, i.e., selling coins.

 

I am also curious as to how you might feel if you had purchased these rolls unseen, or if you had looked at a roll that didn't contain the RPM coins, and had discovered these much later?

 

A couple years ago, I bought a couple nice raw gem Washingtons from the 40's from a local dealer, a PNG member, so I'm not talking about an uninformed individual. About a week later, when I really took the time to look at the coins, I noticed that both were decent DDOs. I didn't feel any obligation to...I don't even know what...return them? go back and give him more money? Although I did think about the ethics of the situation. The closer parallel to your situation lies in what I did next. I went back and looked at all his raw Washingtons too see if there were more.

 

While I was in the store (and actually on the way there), I started to feel anxious about the whole situation, like I was doing something sleazy, but I did it anyway. I guess greed got the better of me, and I convinced myself that I would be a sucker NOT to go look. By the way, I just want to add that I'm not a dealer, and I don't buy coins for resale...these were just for my collection...not that it matters, probably (or does it?). Anyway, there were no more DDOs there. So I didn't have to deal with that ethical dilemma. I did, however, buy a raw 1939-S Washington that I thought was very nice. It was about $60, I think. I submitted it to PCGS and it came back MS66, as I thought it would, and as a considerably pricier commodity. I suppose you could say that I cherrypicked him, quality-wise. I found coins in his case that were definitely not priced in accordance with the quality of the coins, as I saw it. So...was that wrong?

 

You bought a roll of common coins at a dealer's asking price. If you're still uncomfortable with the decision, don't ever do it again, and give the money to charity when you sell them. You could even contact the dealer if your conscience is bothering you. I should add, I still get a little twinge of *something* when I look at the Washington DDOs. I think it's good that you are thinking about this, and it's an interesting topic for discussion.

[IGWT]

Lou, if this is bothering you because of something you did, all you can do is learn from your mistake and move on. You can't change what has happened and your feeling of regret (?) tells me that you are on the right path.

 

Chris -- Trust me, nothing is bothering me. My questions are intended only to probe where we draw the line between what's acceptable and what's not and why. The remark about needing to "ease my conscience" was just my way of saying that I cherrypick varieties. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

I succinctly stated my response to Billy's question in my first post. That response applies equally to buyers and sellers as well as to collectors and dealers. And, just so everyone is clear (including Billy), my opinion is that Billy did nothing unethical.

 

You also know that I maintain a web site where I give away a great deal of my expertise. I figure it's there for any dealer who wants to look at it and learn. If the information is freely available and the dealer chooses not to avail himself of it, then I have no compunction whatsoever about cherrypicking him.

 

I'm always glad when Skippy jumps into a discussion. He often brings clarity of thought and expression. In many ways, he is my mentor in cherrypicking; so, if I'm ever accused of wrongdoing when I pick a nice variety from an unsuspecting dealer, perhaps I'll be able to avoid punishment by blaming him.

[Die Varieties]

First let me say a lot of great and thought provoking replies. Thank you.

 

I do want to clarify, since a few mentioned, about me having thoughts of did I do wrong or something unethical. That if I felt guilty I should donate to charity or do something else to ease my conscience so-to-speak. No where in my initial post did I say that I feel unethical or that I did wrong. I presented the topic as a do you think I was unethical in that particular situation.

 

Did I tell the dealer what I found? No. My initial intention was to only examine a few coins out of the 43-D roll to see what the quality was. I wasn't specifically looking to find a variety or to "cherrypick." However -- as luck would have it, I quickly recognized the major RPM. I knew immediately what the variety was -- and yes, the $$$$ signs flashed in my mind. If I was to say anything different you would know I was a liar. Also to further clarify -- did I know the dealer? No. So that brings the question, lets say if I did know the dealer or had some sort of a relationship with past sells with the dealer, would I have told him about the variety? The answer is yes, I would have told him. However, I might add, if I knew the dealer, therefore he knew me and he would have known that I'm involved with varieties in the first place.

 

In another recent post I asked if anybody would be interested in a newsletter that was similar in format to the old CPN Newsletter that J.T. Stanton had published quite a few years ago. One of the responses was that I probably didn't have the "clout" and very few would be interested. I replied that was a tuff pill to swallow but it was the truth and was an excellent reply to my question. But I also learned something else upon having to swallow that tuff pill. That tuff pill tasted like "steak & lobster." What the heck does Billy mean by that? Since I don't have the clout or to put it another way, I'm not known like a Bill Fivaz or J.T. Stanton who are recognized at any show, I'm able to blend in as Mr. Joe Collector. So, I'm glad I don't have that kind of clout.

 

I find it interesting this age old "cherrypicking" rubs some the wrong way. It's been around forever. The CPG Guide brought it to another level. That book is one of the most popular books of all time. Many now can't wait to get their hands on the new Volume that's been way over due. This includes dealers and collectors, many who are not even "per se" involved with varieties but want to have the information available to them. That's good for the hobby.

 

Am I sleeping good at night? You bet. In this situation, would I do the same thing over again. As many times as I could.

[EZ_E]

So Billy, what are those coins worth? Not relevant to the thread but I'm just curious. Thanks.

[Die Varieties]

So Billy, what are those coins worth? Not relevant to the thread but I'm just curious. Thanks.

 

Contrary to what the CPG Guide states: MS63 - $100 and MS65 - $200, this variety has skyrocketed in value commanding much higher premiums. Numerous eBay auctions for this FS-019 in the past have brought the $1000 and higher premiums dependent upon grade and which TPG has slabbed the coin. I have already been offered $700 each. I nicely passed. I plan to take the coins with me to the upcoming ANA Show in Atlanta and submit to NGC for slabbing.

 

Below is a link to a current auction for the 1943-D/D 1c CONECA RPM-5 which is NOT the FS-019 variety. This RPM-5 auction is of a very weak RPM evident as light notching on the lower serif. Even it's at $355 with some 5 days left to go in the auction. Again this is a much lesser known and weaker RPM.

Linky to Auction

 

Below is a link to a eBay auction for the FS-019 with a $2995 BIN. That's a high end price range. Of course, one never knows and someone might pop it for that. In my opinion that would be around the $1500 or so range.

 

Auction Link

[EZ_E]

Daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaammmmmmmmmmn! Hell's fire and tarnation!

 

That's a healthy premium, I'd say. Knowledge is money and money is power therefore knowledge is power. Good for you, Billy!