Artificial toning is the most difficult of all the coindoctoring to prove fraud.

[truthteller]

With the recent fiascos and whining across the street, I have to say, there will probably be no recourse to the end user or buyer of an artificially toned coin. It becomes even more complex when the sale is dealer to dealer and is sold "as is". In many cases, a retail buyer has consumer agencies who will work with the retail client, so there may be some recourse. Since coins can and do dramatically tone, there is no absolute way to prove a coin has been toned with accelerated methods. I have seen awful AT in holders, but never can say with ABSOLUTE assurance that the coin was processed. Grave suspicions, yes. Unlike altered surfaces with putty, tooling or engraving, or even counterfeit coins, the aspect of artificial toning will have a hard time being eliminated. It's dependent on years of experience with color, how a coin tones, what series tone in which ways, envelope toning versus album toning, all subjective opinions. Altered surfaces is more of an objective opinion based on change of metal surface, which can be proven. This is why it is of extreme importance to know your colors, why coins tone the way they do. It takes years of experience, especially if you are going to spend $10K on a coin in a holder. Will the coin be $10K when cracked out of the holder? Or $200. If you can't tell, don't buy. If you do buy and can't tell, suck it up.

 

 

TRUTH

[Hoot]

Will the coin be $10K when cracked out of the holder? Or $200. If you can't tell, don't buy. If you do buy and can't tell, suck it up.

 

Ultimately, I'd agree with this. The caveat that I have a difficult time with is that certified coins convey the auspices of authenticity. Most people will interpret that as being authentic in all aspects of the coin, whether that's the intention of the services or not. And where the services get into trouble is that they purportedly reject coins with altered surfaces. Thus, part of the conveyance of authenticity is that the surfaces of a coin have not been altered. This is a can of worms.

 

Ultimately, I feel like artificial toning is similar to removal of toning. Both processes can be highly unstable. For unstable AT, the coin will eventually be ruined as the toning accelerates and corrodes the metal; but if the AT is stable, the coin will be no different than an origianlly toned coin. For a dipped coin that is unstable, it will also be ruined in time as corrosion develops; but if the dipping was done right and the surfaces are stable, the coin will simply resemble a freshly minted coin. What is ambiguous is that, in either case, there is no way to predict the ultimate fate of the coin if you're on the receiving end.

 

As for AT, it's the collector's responsibility to understand toning for the series that they collect. If a collector can judge, then buying an AT coin is a matter of measured risk, nothing more.

 

For the grading services, however, a greater onus lies upon them to reject coins that they consider AT with some high level of confidence (90%?, 95%?). This is a matter of experience, as with all of us, and all of the experience in the world may not match the reality of one (or several) rare exception(s). Thus, I think that the grading services ultimately assume the risk of coins that they holder as being NT or having unaltered surfaces. This should be a measurable (actuarial) percentage of their assumed risk for operating a business.

 

Hoot

[kranky]

In a way, by paying immense premiums for some toned coins, I think collectors are essentially abandoning the guarantee which makes slabbed coins so appealing.

 

I agree that AT is impossible to prove. No one has a time-elapsed videotape of the entire history of the coin since it left the dies. Like Truth said, only grave suspicions.

 

So many toned coins are common dates and in less-than-stratospheric grades (coincidence? Hmmm...) And if someone pays 100x sheet for a toned example, later feels the coin is AT, and wants to belly up for the guarantee, what is that owner due? The sheet price, or what was paid? If the TPG felt the coin was NT, and the owner feels it isn't, where are you? It's not as though you can point to the telltale evidence.

 

Should the TPG be liable for a huge premium?

[the_Thing ®]

I'm so glad my collecting interest involves patina, unmessed with surfaces, on ancients. Not too many people, yet, are in a hurry to bake coins in dirt. NGC screwed the pooch on this one, PCGS has screwed the pooch more likely many more times. All you guys who go after the toned coins, I don't see how you sleep at night never knowing for sure if your coin has been doctored by some 300 pound fat dude living in a trailer house in Utah.

[EZ_E]

In a way, by paying immense premiums for some toned coins, I think collectors are essentially abandoning the guarantee which makes slabbed coins so appealing.

 

I agree that AT is impossible to prove. No one has a time-elapsed videotape of the entire history of the coin since it left the dies. Like Truth said, only grave suspicions.

 

So many toned coins are common dates and in less-than-stratospheric grades (coincidence? Hmmm...) And if someone pays 100x sheet for a toned example, later feels the coin is AT, and wants to belly up for the guarantee, what is that owner due? The sheet price, or what was paid? If the TPG felt the coin was NT, and the owner feels it isn't, where are you? It's not as though you can point to the telltale evidence.

 

Should the TPG be liable for a huge premium?

 

Excellent, excellent statement!

 

Case in point is this active thread on the 1826 half. TomB is very well versed in the science of toning and stated categorically that it is AT. Yet, James with loads of hands on experience states that it is NT despite the stagering opposition. Definitely a tough call. That is why no toned coin should demand huge, huge premiums! Sure, beauty is bold and demands a premium but there is also the fad factor involved. Eye-appeal is supreme but not at the expense of common sense and prudence.

[TerrapinWill]

I will say the same thing I have always said. When the pursuit of coins is business related or greed (perhaps the same thing), these things are gonna happen on a large scale. Based on NGC opinion...someone paid huge money for a coin that they must have suspected was AT, if selling toned coins is their business. I am willing to bet a months salary that prior to being slabbed, that coin probably never sold for more than a few hundred dollars, if that. So explain to me why a pice of plastic is worth $10K.

A great point that is always made by many collectors both here and across the street is that if the coin isnt worth the same (or close to the same) outside the holder as it is indside the holder, you're buying plastic. I agree completely with this. For me personally, the only legitimate purpose a TPG serves is to authenticate a coin. I am not the least bit concerned about their opinion about grade or if a coin is AT or NT. I am not above this fray (experienced enough to grade as well as TPG's) , but rather well below it. I think I am among a dying breed. I collect simply for the enjoyment of it. I like filling albums. I try and buy the best coins I can for the prices I am wiling to pay. When one album is filled, I go to another series. I will spend the rest of my life doing this. Are some of the coins in my albums AT?? Probably, but guess what, I don't care...I like the way they look. I love pulling out an album and just looking at the coins in thier holes. I like the way they change during the years, something I don't try to prevent.

 

I suspect most collectors outside of these chat boards are like me, at least I hope so. I am a hobbyist and I'm not saying it's better or worse,, but just what I enjoy. If collecting caused the kind of stress for me that it seems to cause many who post here and across the street, I would stop doing it. JMHO

[EZ_E]

So explain to me why a pice of plastic is worth $10K.

 

Because it lends legitimacy regardless of the veracity of the claim.

[TerrapinWill]

So explain to me why a pice of plastic is worth $10K.

 

Because it lends legitimacy regardless of the veracity of the claim.

 

Even if it's obviously wrong?

[EZ_E]

So explain to me why a pice of plastic is worth $10K.

 

Because it lends legitimacy regardless of the veracity of the claim.

 

Even if it's obviously wrong?

 

 

Sure, to the ignorant. Many dealers can't even grade apart from a TPGS's opinion on the slab, let alone collectors. And AT vs NT is a subject that even seasoned collectors sometimes disagree. So, in a legitimate slab, it gives an air of authenticity to the coin's grade and toning.

 

So, the question is, what is considered AT? Coins colored by heat or chemicals? What about natural accelerated toning whether by placing in an old Wayte Raymond album and placed in a window or an attic for a year or so. Is this acceptable? Is it AT?

[michael]

So many toned coins are common dates and in less-than-stratospheric grades or even ga-ga graded and still common outside of the plastic of course (coincidence? Hmmm...) And if someone pays 100x sheet for a toned example, later feels the coin is AT, they have a great college education for the next time they buy highly questionable even if plastic slabbed market acceptable (to them) common dated and condition toned coins

[IGWT]

Since coins can and do dramatically tone, there is no absolute way to prove a coin has been toned with accelerated methods. I have seen awful AT in holders, but never can say with ABSOLUTE assurance that the coin was processed. Grave suspicions, yes. Unlike altered surfaces with putty, tooling or engraving, or even counterfeit coins, the aspect of artificial toning will have a hard time being eliminated.

 

Would someone please answer me this: Why does it matter whether toning occurred over a period of 80 years in a 2x2 envelope or overnight in a petri dish if the end results are indistinguishable?

[EZ_E]

Market acceptability, irreproducibility and scarceness.

[IGWT]

Market acceptability, irreproducibility and scarceness.

 

I don't understand how "market acceptability" answers my question. The infamous Peace 1$ was "market acceptable" until P. Braddick pulled back the curtain. If he had kept quiet, chances are good that the pretty coin would have sold to a buyer who got what he paid for assuming that AT is indistinguishable from NT. Everybody goes merrily on his way.

 

The answers "irreproducibility" and "scarceness" ignore the premise of my question. The toning is reproducible; and, if it's reproducible, it's hardly scarce (unless the doctors start a cartel).

 

So, what's all the hubbub, Bub, if the skin of a so-called NT coin is indistinguishable from the skin of a so-called AT coin?

[EZ_E]

1)A NT coin is Market acceptable, an AT is not.

 

2)A NT coin is not easlily reproduced because of the several factors

 

involved, an AT can theoritically be reproduced time after time.

 

3)Therefore a NT coin is much scarcer than an AT one.

 

 

----------------------------------------------------------

 

My opinion is that many AT coins are very pretty coins worthy to be in an album, etc. My problem with it is they are pawned at multiples of their actual value. Double price? Maybe, but more like 1.5 X's would be more acceptable. However, they should not be slab and, ideally, the grading svc's should filter them out. But, like Greg pointed out, this doesn't always happen. That is why I believe that the market should correct itself and should not have toned coins going for Oh God money. But, if someone has the funds and really, really wants it then it will go for big bucks 'cause that is what they want and can afford it.

 

Hey, Shane just gave $14 for a quarter! Geeezzzzzz.

 

So, what's all the hubbub, Bub, if the skin of a so-called NT coin is indistinguishable from the skin of a so-called AT coin?

 

Good line. Can I use it?

 

That is actually the bottom line which is stirring the cauldron. Just as counterfeiters strive to mimick an item's detail flawlessly, there are usually tells. It is just a matter of having an expert in the subject find them. And I, sir, am no expert in the matter. I defer all other questions to one more knowledgeable than I, the most honorable Dr. TomB, PHD.

[John Martinez]

If a person wants to collect toned coins, that's their business. If a person wants to pay a premium for toned coins, that's their business.

 

Personally, I would not pay a premium for a damaged coin. Whether AT or NT the surface of the coin is altered, and therefore, I would consider it damaged. Just my take on it. Not my bag, but it may be your's....pun intended.

 

From what I have read here, there are some people that collect toned coins as a preference, and people who collect coins, toned or not.

 

I have a few monderns that were stored in the original mint holders, in a lock box, in a closet that are toning around the edges. Will I get rid of them because of the toning? No. Would I buy a coin that was toned? To fill a hole in may collection, perhaps; however, not at a premium.

 

If one represents a coin to be what it is not, that is fraud, pure and simple. If I buy a coin THINKING that it is NT and it is not, then that should be chalked up to the "education fund".

 

Before I got some smarts and did some research and joined this board, my "education" has taught me to "buy the coin, not the holder", and do not buy coins from someone who cold-calls you. Again, I chalked these up to my "education fund", as neither mis-represented what they were selling.