New Purchase 1826 Bust Half

[MikeKing]

This is a great looking coin. Raw and therefore easier to photograph without the glare off plastic. You have to see this coin to believe it. Amazing. Please don't tell me its AT!!! Unless, of course, you think it is.

 

I think this is wholly original album toning.

 

I got this from someone named Tommy Lawrence who has an internet company named Grand Ol' Halves. Seems like a pretty nice site.

 

 

 

just wanted to share!

[TomB]

I've bought a coin from him before and it was an original EF. This coin, however, from the single set of images I believe to be AT.

[TomB]

I felt badly just leaving you with my AT opinion without any further explanation as to why, so I am back to let you know.

 

To begin with, this coin has the prototypical liver of sulfur look to it. The area between stars 1-5 and the rim is especially problematic as this shade of blue and violet mixed together is very rare and is not often seen on an otherwise lightly or moderately toned coin. Aside from this all I can tell you is that my experience in specializing in superbly toned coinage tells me this is a piece that I would not want to buy.

[Mozin]

I cannot give you a scientific explanation like Tom did above, but I think this coin is AT.

[Merc]

I have several AU and a few MS bust halves. None have toning like this one. The colors are just wrong for old AU silver coins exposed to the air for 180 years. They just don't have that glowing orange. Then the toning is spotty in the center. Sorry to say it is AT.

[chinook]

My initial thought was AT also.

 

Who's holder is it in?

[EZ_E]

My initial thought was AT also.

 

Who's holder is it in?

 

 

Raw and therefore easier to photograph without the glare off plastic.

[chinook]

My initial thought was AT also.

 

Who's holder is it in?

 

 

Raw and therefore easier to photograph without the glare off plastic.

 

Well....that will teach me to read so fast!!

[James_OldeTowne]

Actually, I know exactly what kind of toning it is - and no, it is not AT. This coin spend decades undisturbed in a Kraft envelope. It has exactly the characteristics that I have had the pleasure to view first-hand many times.

 

I absolutely love it, and congratulate you on acquiring a 100% original Choice AU Bust half!

 

 

James

[cpm9ball]

Actually, I know exactly what kind of toning it is - and no, it is not AT. This coin spend decades undisturbed in a Kraft envelope. It has exactly the characteristics that I have had the pleasure to view first-hand many times.

 

I absolutely love it, and congratulate you on acquiring a 100% original Choice AU Bust half!

 

 

James

 

Yes, it looks alot like those Morgans I wish I had!!!

 

Chris

[gmarguli]

I have to agree with the majority here. The coin is AT. I can't put it better than TomB did. It does not look natural at all. Sorry.

[truthteller]

I agree with TomB's supposition. For me, the tell tale signs of AT is purple/violet on the high points of the coin. In general, violet colors should not be on high points, but low points and fields of the coin. When silver comes into contact with high sulfur paper or kraft envelopes, the high points are in contact with the paper, leaving a semi crusty, dark, mattelike tone. The more shallow points of the coin should have the colors, since they are not in direct contact with paper.

 

 

TRUTH

[MikeInFL]

This coin spend decades undisturbed in a Kraft envelope. It has exactly the characteristics that I have had the pleasure to view first-hand many times.

 

I absolutely love it, and congratulate you on acquiring a 100% original Choice AU Bust half!

 

James,

 

I didn't know they had Kraft envelopes in the early 19th century.

 

Isn't there a possibility (or likelihood) that this coin was dipped in the late 20th century and put in an envelope, rather than being 100% original?

 

Just wondering...Mike

[michael]

really sorry to say AT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

and at best highly questionable toning and not market acceptable

[MikeKing]

well, that is all so depressing, but I certainly appreciate the real input and the explanations. Thanks ( I couldn't find an i'm crying emoticon, but I'm cryin man, I'm cryin...)

[HaydenTubbs]

well, that is all so depressing, but I certainly appreciate the real input and the explanations. Thanks ( I couldn't find an i'm crying emoticon, but I'm cryin man, I'm cryin...)

 

It's going to be all right Mike,just sell it to James.

[MikeKing]

well, that is all so depressing, but I certainly appreciate the real input and the explanations. Thanks ( I couldn't find an i'm crying emoticon, but I'm cryin man, I'm cryin...)

 

It's going to be all right Mike,just sell it to James.

 

 

Actually, I know exactly what kind of toning it is - and no, it is not AT. This coin spend decades undisturbed in a Kraft envelope. It has exactly the characteristics that I have had the pleasure to view first-hand many times.

 

I absolutely love it, and congratulate you on acquiring a 100% original Choice AU Bust half!

 

 

 

James

 

James,

 

I didn't know they had Kraft envelopes in the early 19th century.

 

another

 

Wow! James, I'm so sorry I didn't see your post, I was so depressed and wallowing thinking I should have gone to a casino and spent my money there...you're giving me hope.

 

Well....that will teach me to read so fast!!

 

ditto!

[James_OldeTowne]

It is certainly possible that NGC or PCGS would bag this coin for AT, but everyone knows that just at many AT coins get in, many NT coins are incorrectly bagged. I would in fact buy this coin, and I would advertise it as naturally toned.

 

My theory is that the free-floating sulphur tends to tone the coin to a reddish color overall, but that where the highpoints of the detail are directly in contact with the paper, there are additional leached chemicals in the paper that deliver the bluish color.

 

In terms of semantics, I suppose that one might claim that putting a cleaned coin in a Kraft envelope and allowing it to retone is a method of artificial toning, but I have simply seen way too many identically toned coins to believe that there's this huge conspiracy on the part of coin doctors to create a bunch of coins with this identical look.

 

That's just my opinion, which is worth only about half what you paid for it !

 

By the way, all five of the following coins were in the exact same Kraft envelope, sealed since 1967. Any one of them could be mistaken for AT:

 

 

James

[TJ'S Coins]

Something I picked up from Robert Campbell's video on toning is to look at the incused lettering and inside the date on the obverse. Check inside the shield on the reverse.. A coin doctor would not take the time to have different colors in these places, even if he could successfully pull it off. I believe that this a great example of natural toning. Very nice coin! Thanks for sharing it.

[MikeKing]

I was just wondering, something I hadn't noticed...what about that piece of metal above the 8th star?

[rexcat]

I like the strike of your coin a lot Mike.

 

Most of the stars are fully detailed, the coin is well centered with dentils showing all around, and the motto is also well struck, it seems that many Bust Halves are weak in one or more of these areas.

 

As to the toning I don’t know if it’s NT or AT.

 

I think it’s a very good looking coin. Thanks for showing us.

[Mozin]

I was just wondering, something I hadn't noticed...what about that piece of metal above the 8th star?

This marriage looks to be O-118 R1, possibly the a-die state.

 

If you see a "piece of metal above the 8th star", I doubt very much that it was put there by the mint. You still recommending this Ebay seller Grand Ol' Halves?

[MikeKing]

Thanks Rexcat

 

I was just wondering, something I hadn't noticed...what about that piece of metal above the 8th star?

This marriage looks to be O-118 R1, possibly the a-die state.

 

If you see a "piece of metal above the 8th star", I doubt very much that it was put there by the mint. You still recommending this Ebay seller Grand Ol' Halves?

 

I think the seller Grand Ol' Halves (he also has his own web site) is an honest person, and he's got a lot of coins, but most of them are not certified and there's no guarantee they were not cleaned or artificially toned. He has a disclaimer for this. And I can't blame him, since sometimes it's impossible to tell how the TPG's will view a coin. He does honor his return policy, as I returned a coin to him, but it has to be in it's unopened container. The coin I present here I don't think I can return because I took it out of it's package. He did advertise it as 'original' but then again, there's argument on this board about it's being at or nt. I don't think I will buy from him again, not because I don't trust him, but because it's the dilemna of wanted something graded and having to take it out of its original package.

 

Mozin, what DO you think about that piece of metal above the 8th star. If it wasn't put there by the mint, then who would put it there and why?

 

And you're right, it is a 118a, but wouldn't that be with it less the inclusion above the 8th star?

 

[MunkyMan95]

By the way, all five of the following coins were in the exact same Kraft envelope, sealed since 1967. Any one of them could be mistaken for AT:

 

What are you talking about Kraft envelopes? Where can I get one? Shoot, if it tones coins like you say, then where can I get 100?

[Mozin]

I don't know why anyone would intentionally put that blob of metal onto your coin. Maybe someone was experimenting. Perhaps the piece of metal made contact with the coin and somehow got smashed into it. I would need to have the coin in hand to give any better explanation.

 

The blob has nothing to do with this coin being the a-die state.

[MikeKing]

OK, the coin came back from NGC BB as artificially toned.

Should I dip it and send it in for grading?

Send it to NCS?

Send it to PCGS?

Sell it on ebay?

[TJ'S Coins]

For what it is worth I agree with James that this coin is NT. The incused portions of the shield and date are the same tone as the remainder of the coin. A coin doctor would not spend his time doing that.

 

Mike this is a very nice coin. You have pictured it better than GrandOldHalves had it on his site.

 

Chad, you can purchase Kraft style coin envelopes from Staples. I bought a box of 250 for around $7.00 a couple of months ago.

 

I really appreciate the honest sharing of opinions on this list. You guys shoot straight and provide a lot of food for thought for the rest of us. Thanks to all who post!

[Mozin]

Sell it on ebay as it is.

[CTcollector]

Don't waste money submitting to PCGS - you will get the same result....

[James_OldeTowne]

Mike, this coin is NOT AT (in my opinion) - certainly not any more so than many others. I think you got ripped by NGC - and it doesn't surprise me. This is the reason why I have never sent any bust half, or any bust coin for that matter, in for grading. These coins have just had way too many years to acquire toning and colors that the services get nervous about, since they never see these same colors on more modern coins.

 

This is also the reason that I've stated before - bust halves should not be slabbed.

 

If I needed that particular coin, I would buy it from you without a second thought. It is just fine.

 

Quick story - at the local coin club last month, a guy had a bunch of bust halves for sale, mostly raw, but a few certified by NGC and PCGS. I looked through his stuff and passed on most of it, as it was mostly problem coins, or generic pasty-white bust halves (which I can't stand).

 

Toward the end of the meeting, one of the fellow members was all excited about an 1809 in an NGC AU-50 holder, and asked if I'd seen it. I told him that I'd looked through the offerings and had pretty much passed on everything. My friend mentioned that the asking prices was $600 cash, which he didn't have, but promised to bring to the next meeting if the seller would hold the coin for him.

 

At the next meeting (which was this past Friday), he did buy the coin and excitedly showed it to me. I didn't slam the coin or anything, but to me, it was blatant AT. The coin was very dark, and the colors on it just didn't look "right". Even if natural, it was not an attractive coin at all. But it was in an NGC holder.

 

My point is that as always, and most especially when buying bust material, it's the coin that matters, not the holder. Personally, I think you should hold onto this coin, as it is nice, no matter what NGC said.

 

James