Is it AT or NT?

[midwest]

don't you just love coin collecting

 

It would be funny if it weren't so sad

[IGWT]

Hey! My decoder ring finally worked!

[truthteller]

don't you just love coin collecting

 

It would be funny if it weren't so sad

 

 

I just about busted a gut laughing so hard at Braddick's detective work. It still amazes me how some dealers can't tell the difference between BLATANT AT and original NT. Just because it's in a holder doesn't mean it's real toning. Now, if there's a sucker willing to pay $14k for this coin, then it would be sad. BTW, I love the "coin in an envelope for 80 years" story, in itself worth a few hundred bucks.

 

 

TRUTH

[IGWT]

It still amazes me how some dealers can't tell the difference between BLATANT AT and original NT.

 

Umm . . . not just the dealer.

[truthteller]

It still amazes me how some dealers can't tell the difference between BLATANT AT and original NT.

 

Umm . . . not just the dealer.

 

Correct. The TPG grade coins, thus, the intelligent collector/dealer uses his/her expertise and years of experience to disguish between AT, altered surfaces, etc. as well as grade. Relying on any holder is foolhardy.

 

 

 

TRUTH

[gmarguli]

The big question to me is where did the original seller get an MS66 Peace dollar when I'd suspect they work on lower grade coins.

[Tradedollarnut]

Wannabes can be dangerous to your pocketbook.

[michael]

 

I just about busted a gut laughing so hard at Braddick's detective work. It still amazes me how some dealers can't tell the difference between BLATANT AT and original NT. Just because it's in a holder doesn't mean it's real toning. Now, if there's a sucker willing to pay $14k for this coin, then it would be sad. BTW, I love the "coin in an envelope for 80 years" story, in itself worth a few hundred bucks.

 

 

 

 

[EZ_E]

don't you just love coin collecting

 

It would be funny if it weren't so sad

 

e-bay link

 

Maybe Anaconda and Robert Chambers from The Coin Vault should go into business together.

[James_OldeTowne]

I guess in some ways, it IS funny.

 

But overall, I find it extremely disturbing that #1, NGC would certify this coin at all. It is totally, blatantly AT, and #2 that a dealer could have such a lack of conscience as to offer this as an original, toned monster.

 

James

[XpipedreamR]

The big question to me is where did the original seller get an MS66 Peace dollar when I'd suspect they work on lower grade coins.

 

 

 

 

It's hard to believe that this guy is using MS66 peace dollars, or even MS65 peace dollars. Did it get the old "bump" for color?

 

 

[HaydenTubbs]

I guess in some ways, it IS funny.

 

But overall, I find it extremely disturbing that #1, NGC would certify this coin at all. It is totally, blatantly AT, and #2 that a dealer could have such a lack of conscience as to offer this as an original, toned monster.

 

James

 

Hey everyone makes mistakes...and it was in an NGC holder,to the unskilled eye it would appear NT...Cough,cough Hayden!

[TerrapinWill]

Well, it seems to me that both collectors and dealers put entirely too much faith in TPG companies. thread after thread, both here and across the street proclaim the importance of TPG's. this situation is a perfect example of why they should be irrelevant. When that coin was posted in the original thread, which was titled "Quite Possibly the greated toned Peace Dollar...", I immediately thought to myself "there is no way that coin should be holdered". I didnt follow the thread, but as I recall only one person suggested it was AT.

 

If you're willing to pay 14K for a coin like that, you're an insufficiently_thoughtful_person and deserve to lose your money. If you are a dealer and you represent that coin as AT....you have lost all credibility in my eyes. How could anyone think that coin is NT or worth 14K?

[XpipedreamR]

How could anyone think that coin is NT

 

 

 

 

Yet, a panel of experts DID

[Tradedollarnut]

But overall, I find it extremely disturbing that #1, NGC would certify this coin at all. It is totally, blatantly AT, and #2 that a dealer could have such a lack of conscience as to offer this as an original, toned monster.

 

James

 

Not a lack of conscience - I was at their table and they were very proud of the coin. A lack of skill. A perfect example of why Laura rants on and on about the wannabes being dangerous to the pocketbook.

[IGWT]

A secret decoder ring sure makes the dealer's description of the coin look different:

 

To understAnd how rare color like This on a PeAce dollar is, I will have To take A momenT to explAin. FirsT of All, Peace dollars were noT extensively stored in the TreAsury vaulTs for decAdes such as Morgan dollars were. MosT of them did mAke iT out into commerce And many sTAyed in minT condition AT banks and some AT the Treasury. NATurally, the morgan dollArs Toned in the mint bags over decAdes and produced ThousAnds upon ThousA ands of impressively Toned coins whereAs The lowly Peace dollArs didn't sTay in one place long enough to ATtain such heAvenly Toning. The ones thAT did tone developed mostly dusty Auburn or golden hues. However, There Are some excepTions to this harsh reAliTty, As is The cAse for This very Peace dollar. I have seen probably 5-6 Peace dollArs wiTh very exceptionAl Toning And mosT of those thAT I hAve seen exhibiT some sort of pAper or envelope Toning and none of them are As richly Toned As This exAmple. This type of color is different from the deep tones generATed by bags in thAT it produces lighter pAsTel shades. I can only imagine how long this coin sAT stored in the 2x2 envelope. I would guess thAT it sAT in there for 80 years neArly undisTurbed. It would explain AloT since who would bother to open a 2x2 envelope with a common dATe Peace dollar mArked on the fronT? Especially if it sAT in some obscure collection for decades.

 

I think I'll use my ring to decode all of his listings.

[IGWT]

Not a lack of conscience - I was at their table and they were very proud of the coin. A lack of skill. A perfect example of why Laura rants on and on about the wannabes being dangerous to the pocketbook.

 

It's no less unconscionable for a person to hold himself out as possessing skills that he lacks.

[XpipedreamR]

A secret decoder ring sure makes the dealer's description of the coin look different:

 

To understAnd how rare color like This on a PeAce dollar is, I will have To tAke A a momenT to explAain. FirsT of All, Peace dollars were noT extensively stored in the TreAsury vaulTs for decAdes such as Morgan dollars were. MosT of them did mAke iT out into commerce And many sTAyed in minT condition AT banks and some AT the Treasury. NATurally, the morgan dollArs Toned in the mint bags over decAdes and produced ThousAnds upon ThousA ands of impressively Toned coins whereAs The lowly Peace dollArs didn't sTay in one place long enough to ATtain such heAvenly Toning. The ones thAT did tone developed mostly dusty Auburn or golden hues. However, There Are some excepTions to this harsh reAliTty, As is The cAse for This very Peace dollar. I have seen probably 5-6 Peace dollArs wiTh very exceptionAl Toning And mosT of those thAT I hAve seen exhibiT some sort of pAper or envelope Toning and none of them are As richly Toned As This exAmple. This type of color is different from the deep tones generATed by bags in thAT it produces lighter pAsTel shades. I can only imagine how long this coin sAT stored in the 2x2 envelope. I would guess thAT it sAT in there for 80 years neArly undisTurbed. It would explain AloT since who would bother to open a 2x2 envelope with a common dATe Peace dollar mArked on the fronT? Especially if it sAT in some obscure collection for decades.

 

I think I'll use my ring to decode all of his listings.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[TerrapinWill]

How could anyone think that coin is NT

 

 

 

 

Yet, a panel of experts DID

 

 

[Tradedollarnut]

A secret decoder ring sure makes the dealer's description of the coin look different:

 

To understAnd how rare color like This on a PeAce dollar is, I will have To take A momenT to explAin. FirsT of All, Peace dollars were noT extensively stored in the TreAsury vaulTs for decAdes such as Morgan dollars were. MosT of them did mAke iT out into commerce And many sTAyed in minT condition AT banks and some AT the Treasury. NATurally, the morgan dollArs Toned in the mint bags over decAdes and produced ThousAnds upon ThousA ands of impressively Toned coins whereAs The lowly Peace dollArs didn't sTay in one place long enough to ATtain such heAvenly Toning. The ones thAT did tone developed mostly dusty Auburn or golden hues. However, There Are some excepTions to this harsh reAliTty, As is The cAse for This very Peace dollar. I have seen probably 5-6 Peace dollArs wiTh very exceptionAl Toning And mosT of those thAT I hAve seen exhibiT some sort of pAper or envelope Toning and none of them are As richly Toned As This exAmple. This type of color is different from the deep tones generATed by bags in thAT it produces lighter pAsTel shades. I can only imagine how long this coin sAT stored in the 2x2 envelope. I would guess thAT it sAT in there for 80 years neArly undisTurbed. It would explain AloT since who would bother to open a 2x2 envelope with a common dATe Peace dollar mArked on the fronT? Especially if it sAT in some obscure collection for decades.

 

I think I'll use my ring to decode all of his listings.

 

 

ROTFLMAO. Very creative!

[TerrapinWill]

This thread, across the street, is by far the best thread in quite a while. I think it reveals quite a few things about our hobby, and the people involved.

what surprises me the most, by far, is how many people are now slamming the Anaconda and talking how obviosuly AT the coin. Why were there so few criticisms prior to the detective work by Braddick. This coin was on the boards for a while before Braddick revealed what he had found, yet so few people even suggested the possibility that it was AT. What does that tell you?

[gmarguli]

But overall, I find it extremely disturbing that #1, NGC would certify this coin at all. It is totally, blatantly AT, and #2 that a dealer could have such a lack of conscience as to offer this as an original, toned monster.

 

James

 

Not a lack of conscience - I was at their table and they were very proud of the coin. A lack of skill. A perfect example of why Laura rants on and on about the wannabes being dangerous to the pocketbook.

 

Now that's not fair. Anaconda is selling a coin based on the color. He (or someone else) had the color authenticated by experts who deemed it real or market acceptable. If he is a wannabe because of this, then you're calling the NGC graders wannabes and lacking skill also. After all, they're the ones that made the decision the color was OK. Anaconda is just reselling their opinion. This isn't a case of calling a dog coin a high end coin and burying a buyer in it. This is selling color pure and simple and the experts said the color was OK.

 

And be honest, if that coin were walked up to Laura at the show, in a PCGS/NGC slab, and she thought highly of the dealer offering it, wouldn't she buy it if the price were right? Or has Laura never sold a slabbed AT coin? Because I have seen a couple of coins Legend has been offering for sale that were with 100% certainty AT, but slabbed by PCGS/NGC. Is she a wannabe now?

[TerrapinWill]

But overall, I find it extremely disturbing that #1, NGC would certify this coin at all. It is totally, blatantly AT, and #2 that a dealer could have such a lack of conscience as to offer this as an original, toned monster.

 

James

 

Not a lack of conscience - I was at their table and they were very proud of the coin. A lack of skill. A perfect example of why Laura rants on and on about the wannabes being dangerous to the pocketbook.

 

Now that's not fair. Anaconda is selling a coin based on the color. He (or someone else) had the color authenticated by experts who deemed it real or market acceptable. If he is a wannabe because of this, then you're calling the NGC graders wannabes and lacking skill also. After all, they're the ones that made the decision the color was OK. Anaconda is just reselling their opinion. This isn't a case of calling a dog coin a high end coin and burying a buyer in it. This is selling color pure and simple and the experts said the color was OK.

 

And be honest, if that coin were walked up to Laura at the show, in a PCGS/NGC slab, and she thought highly of the dealer offering it, wouldn't she buy it if the price were right? Or has Laura never sold a slabbed AT coin? Because I have seen a couple of coins Legend has been offering for sale that were with 100% certainty AT, but slabbed by PCGS/NGC. Is she a wannabe now?

 

 

I agree with you to a point. I don't think Anaconda deserves to be slammed or called a "wannabe". But this entire issue is revealing. The moment I saw that coin in a previous thread, I thought it screamed AT. I cant post there, but I do read the threads. The color just looked wrong. I was extremely surprised that is had been holdered.

 

So what is the moral of this strange tale? I guess we're back where we have always been.....TPG is nothing more than an opinion. Sometimes, perhaps many times, their opinion is wrong or off. I would love to hear NGC's explanation on how this coin was assigned the grade and/or considered market acceptable.

[Tradedollarnut]

Now that's not fair. Anaconda is selling a coin based on the color. He (or someone else) had the color authenticated by experts who deemed it real or market acceptable. If he is a wannabe because of this, then you're calling the NGC graders wannabes and lacking skill also. After all, they're the ones that made the decision the color was OK. Anaconda is just reselling their opinion. This isn't a case of calling a dog coin a high end coin and burying a buyer in it. This is selling color pure and simple and the experts said the color was OK.

 

I posted this just a while ago in one of the many threads on the coin:

 

I'm an experienced collector, but far from an expert on toning. When I held the coin, I didn't like it and I gave it back with no comment. I also considered a coin from another dealer at the show - a PCGS graded coin. While slightly less controversial but prettier, I didn't feel the toning was original and I passed on it as well. So I may well have passed on a coin with original toning, but my spidey sense was tingling. That's the way it's gotta be to protect yourself.

 

One tip is to look at a dealer's display case [ebay store]. If it's full of original gems and they have one controversial piece, I would be inclined to lean one way. If it's full of questionable coins, why give them the benefit of the doubt?

 

I think the second paragraph addresses your comments rather directly.

 

 

 

And be honest, if that coin were walked up to Laura at the show, in a PCGS/NGC slab, and she thought highly of the dealer offering it, wouldn't she buy it if the price were right?

 

No. I've seen her pass on nice looking coins many times because she didn't think they were original. She's told me again and again she'd rather close up shop than compromise her standards.

[James_OldeTowne]

A lack of skill is certainly understandable and excusable. I'm surprised that this dealer is dealing in 5 digit coins then!

 

James

[TerrapinWill]

A lack of skill is certainly understandable and excusable. I'm surprised that this dealer is dealing in 5 digit coins then!

 

James

 

Good point!

[Tradedollarnut]

A lack of skill is certainly understandable and excusable. I'm surprised that this dealer is dealing in 5 digit coins then!

 

James

 

A hot market brings out all kinds. I've been wary of this dealer ever since he listed a PF68 twenty cent piece for around $65,000. I had the chance to buy the same coin in the mid $30k range but passed because it had obvious problems. He didn't catch the problems, purchased it and then proceeded to list it at a 50%+ markup. Somebody got buried.

[gmarguli]

I'm surprised that this dealer is dealing in 5 digit coins then!

 

They're only 3-4 digit coins when they come to him. They're 5 digit when they leave.

[James_OldeTowne]

Tradedollarnut (or anyone else), forgive my ignorance, but is "Anaconda Coins" a major (or long-time) dealer? I have to admit they do not sound very familiar to me...

 

James

[gmarguli]

Tradedollarnut (or anyone else), forgive my ignorance, but is "Anaconda Coins" a major (or long-time) dealer? I have to admit they do not sound very familiar to me...

 

James

 

He's been dealing for a few years. His main business is a law firm. He's a high end toning dealer that a lot of people dislike.