How many of you can honestly discern the difference between one point in MS?

[Jazzy]

I was looking at a bunch of PCGS Lincolns last night in grades from 64 to 67, and I'll be damned if I can tell the difference between a 65 and a 66. 64 and 67, yes, but how exactly do you calculate ONE point?

 

You would think that the TPG's would go to some kind of high-tech system, like measuring the distance from the highest point in the device to the field with lasers. If you could say that certain characteristics of the device were exactly "x" number of microns from the field, then perhaps you would have good justification for a 10-point MS scale.

 

Considering the rather "human" nature of the grading process (most TPG graders don't even use a loupe), I would be very wary of paying high premiums for one extra point in grade. Of course, I don't mean to denigrate the registry collectors at all - everyone should collect whatever they want, but sometimes I think they really ARE collecting plastic as opposed to coins.

 

While I'm at it, someone explain to me why modern commems and bullion should be slabbed at all... With the mint's technology as it is, all of that stuff comes out at 69. (My favorite number )

 

 

 

 

 

[relicsncoins]

With some series yes..........most no. I think I am pretty profficient in Indians and Flying Eagles. Even with those, I could probably tell the difference between a low end 64 and a 65. However, if it's a high end 64 and an average 65, probably not.

[Jazzy]

Hey Relic, how good ARE you at FE's?

 

I'm looking for an MS FE for my Dansco type album.

 

Would you have any objection to my PMing you the auctions I'm looking at for your advice?

[supertooth]

Jazzy-----Very interesting thought. I would say it depends on how knowledgable you are about a given series. For me it is Walkers. For the last 7 years my focus has been on becoming the best. Heck, still do not know it all. Yet I can laugh at how dumb I was 7 years ago. You find that you look at the coins in a different light-----the more coins that you look at. You do actually become soooooo good that, in most instances, a loupe is not necessary to give a grade. But I find that I never have given up my loupes---as I still wish to inspect the coin further in most instances. Strange----but your find that you continually find out about places on the coin that before, you paid little attention to such places. In your head, you form what for you are criteria that determine a grade in your mind. This process just sort of developes. You just seem to just get there by constantly looking at coins and then buying and selling them. Then one day you wake up and seem to be confident in yourself. But never assume that you know it all----for indeed you will never get there IMHO. Bob [supertooth]

[relicsncoins]

Jazzy,

 

I'd be happy to look at some FE's for you. A word of caution though; With Copper-Nickel , color is a big factor in determining an un-mucked with coin, and the problem with photos is that you can change the color scheme quite easily. I can give you a good idea to the grade of the coin providing the photos have not been "enhanced" in anyway.

 

Jason

[jom]

I'm not sure whether I can tell a difference but in certain series I CAN tell whether the coin is PQ. To me that is far more important than whether the coin is a 64 or 65. I realize there can be a huge difference in price but if you can find a PQ coin in a lower grade then the price jumps are not that significant anyway.

 

jom

[Die Varieties]

Since I specialize in the Lincoln cent series -- yes I can tell the difference. Other series -- no I can not. However, what I'm more interested in is the die state of the coin since this involves varieties. The earlier -- the better for me. Although the coins grade is still important to me -- it is secondary to the die state in my overall consideration.

[Jazzy]

Since I specialize in the Lincoln cent series -- yes I can tell the difference. Other series -- no I can not. However, what I'm more interested in is the die state of the coin since this involves varieties. The earlier -- the better for me. Although the coins grade is still important to me -- it is secondary to the die state in my overall consideration.

 

Which opens the Pandora's box.

 

Is an early die state 65 comparable somehow to a late die state 65?

 

Do the TPG graders even consider die state, except to determine that one strike is stronger/weaker than another?

[Die Varieties]

Since I specialize in the Lincoln cent series -- yes I can tell the difference. Other series -- no I can not. However, what I'm more interested in is the die state of the coin since this involves varieties. The earlier -- the better for me. Although the coins grade is still important to me -- it is secondary to the die state in my overall consideration.

 

Which opens the Pandora's box.

 

Is an early die state 65 comparable somehow to a late die state 65?

 

Do the TPG graders even consider die state, except to determine that one strike is stronger/weaker than another?

 

You bring up an interesting point of view. I'm only speaking from what I look for in a coin. How a TPG would grade/view earlier versus later die states and what bearing it might have on their grading of that particular coin I have no idea. However, for me -- with die varieties it makes a major difference. I would rather have a VEDS 1995 1c DDO that lets say grades a MS-62 (and will pay more for it) than lets say a VLDS 1995 1c DDO that is graded MS-68. The VEDS will show the doubling needle sharp while the VLDS with exhibit the doubling with a mushy, washed-out appearance.

[kryptonitecomics]

Yes I can...and the secret is looking at a lot of coins and not so much reading descriptions out of grading books. I think I have a distinct advantage vs. some here becuase quite frankly I don't specialize in any series other than Morgans, but I actively collect just about all 20th century coins as part of my Toned coin collection so I feel very confident in my ability to grade the vast majority.

 

With that being said......if you push me back to large Cents, Half cents, 3 Cent Silvers etc.......I think I could grade within a few points but I wouldn't be much more accurate then that and consistency of grades would be a problem since I am not as familiar with wear points and also common problem areas of the coins.

 

I think it's critical for you to become a grading expert in the series you widly collect and for me that series has become Morgan Silver Dollars.

[Merc]

I can grade most series in the MS range. I was a finalist in last year's PCGS grading contest. Grading is a crazy thing. With common coins like a 1881-S morgan or moders, you use technical grading. With other coins like MS bust halves, you use market grading where you allow for more problems that are common in the series. I usually use a loupe just for a second to catch hairlines. With the smaller coins nickel or smaller, I have to use a loupe.

 

To help me grade, I have several mint state coins in a variety of series that I think are solid for the grade. Then I have several grading books. They help to define what the grade should be.

 

Another hard part of grading is gradeflation or overgraded coins in holders. Some just do not fit the definition of their given grade on the holder. Recently, I had a friend show me a 1882-CC PCGS MS66 dollar. He had taped over the grade and had me grade it like a raw coin. The luster and strike were solid, but it had a major distracting mark on Liberty cheek. That makes it a 64. I was shocked to see it was a 66. I pulled out my CC morgans and the coin matched the 64.

[michael]

within my specialities i can tell the difference between ms 65 66 67

 

a gem 65 is just that a gem not perfect but gem

 

66 is really sweet and is a superb gem

 

and a 67 for me has to be almost close to perfection

[chinook]

within my specialities i can tell the difference between ms 65 66 67

 

a gem 65 is just that a gem not perfect but gem

 

66 is really sweet and is a superb gem

 

and a 67 for me has to be almost close to perfection

 

Ditto for me. The key phrase being "within my specialty"

[TomB]

I have little problem telling apart single MS grades for most coin series, and those that I am not familiar with would take only a relatively short time to get the hang of grading.

[Hoot]

I tend to do fairly well in the MS62-67 range in many series, and not bad with proofs of the same (at least compared to what I receive back from NGC and PCGS). With modern commems, I do fairly well with the 68-69 stuff (proof and MS) and have twice predicted 70 grades and actually got them. (70 grades are so rare that a sample of two is not a good sample size.) That said, I average about 80-90% correct prediciton overall, with the remaining both over and under, usually by a point but by two on occasion . Learning to grade by EAC standards (something that always needs practice) truly improved my grading skills, especially with early U.S. and darkside.

 

Hoot

[macrocoin]

Can someone recommend a good book that gives guidance for grading Morgans?

I have been collecting for some time, and I think after many years I have developed a good eye for grades, specifically in the dates and mints I am most familiar with. That being said, I do not actually know the point system used in grading these coins and I would really like to read up on it.

 

Typically I will use my certified examples as guides when buying raw coins. I have studied stronger graded strikes under a loupe and noted the fine characteristics and have sought the same in the raw morgans I have picked up. I would be curious to see what a pro would actually grade some of them, I just cant justify the cost of having them certified.

 

So...whats a good book on grading morgans?

 

Franklins?

Walkers?

Mercury dimes?

 

Thanks!

[Wihlborg]

Macrocoin,

 

In my opinion there are no better books to help teach grading then the ANA Correspondence Courses. You can find them here;

 

ANA Correspondence Courses

 

John

[Hoot]

MAKING THE GRADE: THE TOP 25 MOST WIDELY COLLECTED US COINS

 

has a very nice section in it on Morgans. All color, grades from AG through MS65, with descriptions. You can pick it up at Amos Advantage. The sections on each coin are accompanied by illustrations of what the most vulnerable points of wear are, as in Halpern's book. Quite handy.

 

Hoot

[EZ_E]

Bob,

 

I think that mintstate Walkers are one of the absolute toughest coin to grade due to their notorious weak strikes. Kudos to you, bro!

[2toneVF35-migration]

Not yet... still in VF-XF, then comes AU 50 whatever...

[Coin]

I have a run-through method for fast perusing of coins in cases that claim to be MS ...and bascially I determine what is field and what is high point and what are the poor strike regions for that particular coin...I look for the damages and strike level , then if the coins warrants more attention...ask to hold it and rotate it in a flat circular motion ....while checking for the luster and any toning and any of the spread pattern of the striking . I start off with a 100 point scale for each coin ...and subtract for each ding,hairline , poor feature , and get a new number that I can break down to correspond to a set range. It is kinda hard to explain my method , but it works for me and gets me close enough to be within a point or two , but not quite expert enough to discern the higher grade coins in the 69-70 range. Of course , I am not looking at coins that the difference between 69 and 70 is several thousand dollars.

[kranky]

I think to become a good grader you must look at lots of coins. And if you want to be a good grader in a series like Buffalo nickels, you need to know how different dates are graded.

 

What makes it difficult to learn to grade from books is that eye appeal is such a critical component in grading, and books can't teach that.

 

The ANA Summer Seminar has week-long grading classes and I give them my highest recommendation. The instructors are mostly current and former graders for third-party graders and the amount of insight you can learn is phenominal. Just learning HOW they approach grading a coin is very informative.

[ldhair]

I'm starting to think I can nail most anything from an image and that's really stupid.

In hand many here can nail it every time in their series.

Lincoln I can do, gold is beyond me.

[TerrapinWill]

I have to concede that I probably would have a difficult time telling the difference between 66-67-68....but pretty good at 58-65. It's not really all that important to me though, I buy coins for eye appeal mostly, and almost always for albums.

I would never be able to do the buy-submitt-flip game, just dont have enough skill, patience or time.

[Elcontador]

Re MS 65 & MS 66, I think you can usually tell, if you've looked at enough coins in each grade in a given series. I've looked at lots of Standers & Liberty Nickels. Walkers IMO don't seem difficult to grade.

 

With Standers & Walkers, you're generally looking at fewer tick marks in 6. On a five, they're usually easy to spot with the naked eye. You have to look more closely to find them on a 6 (and there are fewer of them). The exception for Walkers is that they may get a bump for beautiful toning, which is rare on SLQs.

 

Same re the tick marks on the Liberty Nickels. Surfaces are cleaner on 6s, and though I've seen 5s with ugly toning, I've never seen a 6 like this.

 

FWIW, the most consistently ugly coin I've seen in a 5 holder is a Barber Half.

[jom]

FWIW, the most consistently ugly coin I've seen in a 5 holder is a Barber Half.

 

You mean like that "beauty" you were looking at at Whitlow's table?

 

jom

[Coin]

Yeup , like I said earlier , but failed to mention , I can get close within the range of certain series , but not all ....as others have said...it depends on your knowledge of the particular series of coin....I'm much better at modern commems ( I feel they are the easiest for me) , but I still am weak at SLQs , for example.

 

I wonder if anyone can possibly be able to ever be good enough to discern 68/69/70 for all coin series.....versus just a few or just one , like most .

[Elcontador]

You mean like that "beauty" you were looking at at Whitlow's table?

 

Jom - that was actually one of the nicer MS 65 Barber Halves I saw that day. I make a point of not eating anything at least two hours before looking at mint state Barber Halves.

[Bruceswar]

I must say I have the hardest times with coins in the AU 58 to MS 62 range... or sliders.... Its a slight wear? or Friction?... but the more you look at .. the better you get...