The slabbing game...is PCGS now the only one worth having?

[James_OldeTowne]

My buddy who always gives me a hard time about posting on NGC but not PCGS had to link me to this PCGS thread . What do you think? Here's how it starts out:

 

I don't have much of a stake in slabbed coins anymore. My observation of the marketplace indicates that PCGS is now the clear winner in the slabbing game. If I were to go back into US coins I suspect I would want PCGS only. Coins in other holders would have to be discounted EVEN IF THE COINS WERE PROPERLY GRADED.

 

What are your current feelings?

 

James

[EZ_E]

It depends on the series. High grade moderns in ngc are (for the most part) worthless regardless of the quality of the coin.

 

That is why michael only buys PCGS PR and MS 70 coins!!

 

Ain't that right, buddy?

[kryptonitecomics]

I want properly graded coins regardless of what holder the reside in......now days you are just as likely to get undergraded coins in PCGS holders as you are to get accurately graded ones. This can certainly be construed as a plus since you can conceivably get more coin for your buck in a PCGS holder. This is not a 100% certainty so you still have to buy the coin and not the holder

[IGWT]

It makes me giggle when I hear people refer to a "PCGS coin" or a "[insert any TPG name] coin" as though an opinion on the relative condition of a coin becomes part of the coin itself. A TPG opinion doesn't change one atom on the face of a coin, and the slab label neither adds to nor detracts from the attributes of a coin. That's part of the reason that I'm not fond of the registries (other than the Signature Set Registry). They focus on opinions of coins instead of on the coins themselves; and, as a result, the TPG opinions take on value of their own.

 

I recently made a deal for a coin graded -66 by one of the "big two" grading services. That opinion -- whether by PCGS or NGC -- did not remove a defect on the obverse that shouldn't be present on what I'd call a -66. I bought the coin at a fair price for what it is, and for what it will contribute to my collection, instead of for the grade assigned by a TPG. I didn't buy a PCGS coin. I didn't buy an NGC coin. I bought a U.S. federal coin that happens to be wrapped in plastic bearing an opinion that does not alter the coin or change its value.

 

The comment quoted by James would make sense to me only if I were in the business of buying and selling sight-unseen. I'm not in that business.

[EZ_E]

I agree completely with you, IGWT. But it all boils down to a perception of confidence in whatever TPGS. Once people got wise to ACG, they lost their share in the market despite what they claim in their lawsuits.

 

There was a PR 67 Deep Cameo/Ultra Cameo Barber Quarter for sell at the Baltimore show with two noticable hits on the cheeks. This would normally limit the grade to a 64. So, hey, buy the coin, not the holder 'cause ain't noone infallible.

[Tradedollarnut]

There are undergrades and overgrades in both company's holders ... any generality breaks down on a coin by coin basis. Since we collect on a coin by coin basis, what good is the generality?

[HaydenTubbs]

Is PCGS now the only one worth having?

No,NGC,ANACS and even the occasional ICG will work for me just as well.

 

Are PCGS certified coins worth more?

Yes for average pieces with nothing special to them such as toning,P/L,etc. PCGS coins are worth more sight-seen and sight-unseen. I'd take a similar coin in a PCGS holder over any other service hands down. We always say buy the coin not the holder but that fact is that there are many collectors and dealers alike who only buy the plastic. While this may be to an extreme I believe everyone is like this. Just consider if you had an 1889-CC Morgan in PCGS MS-65,however you full well knew it was no better than a 64. Would you sell it to me for 64 money?

 

 

Hayden

[IGWT]

Just consider if you had an 1889-CC Morgan in PCGS MS-65,however you full well knew it was no better than a 64. Would you sell it to me for 64 money?

 

Well, maybe not you Hayden, because you seem to value the opinion more than the coin itself. I'd set what I think is a fair price for the coin; you'd either buy it at that price or not.

[HaydenTubbs]

Just consider if you had an 1889-CC Morgan in PCGS MS-65,however you full well knew it was no better than a 64. Would you sell it to me for 64 money?

 

Well, maybe not you Hayden, because you seem to value the opinion more than the coin itself. I'd set what I think is a fair price for the coin; you'd either buy it at that price or not.

 

I'm not saying that the opinion is worth more to me,if I could ever afford an 1889-CC in MS-65 I'd make sure it's a full blown 65. I'm just saying that because of the fact that it's in a PCGS holder,someone is going to be more than willing to pay 65 money...

 

 

I'll be quiet now

[IGWT]

There are undergrades and overgrades in both company's holders ... any generality breaks down on a coin by coin basis. Since we collect on a coin by coin basis, what good is the generality?

 

The generality is good for incessant prattle on the boards.

[TerrapinWill]

I think this question and that entire thread is irrelevant if you are truly a collector of US coinage. JMHO

[gmarguli]

My buddy who always gives me a hard time about posting on NGC but not PCGS had to link me to this PCGS thread . What do you think? Here's how it starts out:

 

I don't have much of a stake in slabbed coins anymore. My observation of the marketplace indicates that PCGS is now the clear winner in the slabbing game. If I were to go back into US coins I suspect I would want PCGS only. Coins in other holders would have to be discounted EVEN IF THE COINS WERE PROPERLY GRADED.

 

What are your current feelings?

 

James

 

The people who make comments like that are clueless. They're the ones that will buy dogs in PCGS plastic at premium prices and think they are smart buyers. They wouldn't know a properly graded coin if their life depended on it. And in many cases, these people are not talking about 99% of the coins out there, because their point of reference is ultra-modern coins.

 

Take a look at some of the "wonderful comments" in that thread and you'll notice that many of the people have not been in this hobby for very long. They make statements that are clearly not true or those that they do not back up with facts.

[HaydenTubbs]

I think this question and that entire thread is irrelevant if you are truly a collector of US coinage. JMHO

 

I agree,unfortunately this doesn't mean much when it comes time to sell to the average collector...

[TerrapinWill]

agree,unfortunately this doesn't mean much when it comes time to sell to the average collector...

 

If people are worried about "time to sell", perhaps there are other hobbies for them. This whole, "Time to sell" thing comes up alot, when discussing PCGS v. NGC, and collecting in general. I imagine the majority of collectors are in it just for the joy and pleasure, and are not represented by some of the nonsense that is read here and across the street. The entire "which is the best plastic" discussion probably doesnt take place among a majority of collectors. Just a guess.

[Oldtrader3]

I just sold about (400) slabbed coins this year, bought about (40) slabbed coins and still have about (150) slabs remaining. In addition to that I have probably bought and sold an additional (500) slabs over the years. These coins were 98% PCGS/NGC slabs and 90%+ were MS63 coins, PR68DCAM, or above. They also have been purchased over the entire span of TPG grading and in many different denominations. I am not a dealer but I have looked at and owned enough coins to have a considered opinion.

 

The reality is, both companies are cyclical and have a significant grading distribution curve over the years with standard deviations probably approaching one whole grade. Given normal distribution (with s=1 grade), probably only about 64% of their graded coins are within +/- one grade from mean for that series and date. Their grading also appears to be weighted by date graded.

 

PCGS usually (not always) gives small collectors more conservative grades. NGC tends to grade more accurately. This probably explains the "sight-unseen" belief set phenomena. Now that I have bored you to death, realize that grading is still subjective, whether PCGS or NGC. Plus, I believe that the statistical mean difference between the (2) TPG's is probably about 1/2 grade, mostly weighted by conservative grading on early slabs. However, it would be difficult to prove this theory.

[Hoot]

What IGWT, Greg, TDN and Charlie said. (Except that for a N(mew,sigma), 68.27% of the population is within 1 sd of the mean. - Caught ya on that one, you old engineer! )

 

Hoot

[Count_Erfit]

Hey! Wud ya want an AFTERMARKET oil filter on yer Rolls?

 

FOO-EEY! Not me! An I want British Petroleum oil in it too.

 

Otherwise it won't run good.

[Oldtrader3]

Hoot: Mea Culpa, Mea Culpa! Get out the salt and pour it in my mouth, I have a confession to make! Another Senior Moment in progress!

[Hoot]

Hoot: Mea Culpa, Mea Culpa! Get out the salt and pour it in my mouth, I have a confession to make! Another Senior Moment in progress!

 

 

Now, where did I leave that shaker???

 

Hoot

[jom]

Are people really that stupid? OK...wait...I suppose we all go thru that "what slab it's in" phase when we first start out. I think that over time the "newbies" will figure out that it doesn't matter a damn what plastic the coin is surrounding it. Not anymore than you would if you bought the thing in a Capital plasitc holder or a Dansco.

 

Of course, this all assumes these "newbies" will be around long enough to actually learn or will they go on to some other "investment".

 

jom

[HaydenTubbs]

agree,unfortunately this doesn't mean much when it comes time to sell to the average collector...

 

If people are worried about "time to sell", perhaps there are other hobbies for them. This whole, "Time to sell" thing comes up alot, when discussing PCGS v. NGC, and collecting in general. I imagine the majority of collectors are in it just for the joy and pleasure, and are not represented by some of the nonsense that is read here and across the street. The entire "which is the best plastic" discussion probably doesnt take place among a majority of collectors. Just a guess.

 

Except when it comes time to sell

 

 

 

 

[TerrapinWill]

[TerrapinWill]

It amazes me how many people buy plastic. I don't know if you read any threads written by Legend, but I think this is what she means when she says "wannabe's"

 

People who buy plastic, regardless of the coin cointained therein, are hoping to find a bigger fool on ebay. I'm sorry, but that is not a collector and not someone who has even bothered to learn how to grade.

 

I will never understand these people.

[jgrinz]

Case and Point on buying the coin and not the holder. I recently sent for Certification Grading and Encasulating to NGC a coin I bought off of EBAY.

It was in an NTC holder ( heheh ) was MS66 1878 7feather variety reverse of 78 and paid 110 dollars for.I KNOW the GRADE realistically was over by 1-2 points but under futher examination of the coin ( Seller had nice pictures ) it was a 8 Tail feather variety in a 7 tail feather holder.Funny part is I was buying it to resell and I ended up keeping it to fill a vacant slot in my collection. I will let you know what NGC thinks on its grade and condition ( I unholdered it so they dont know )

Mike

 

[TerrapinWill]

I think most knowledgable colectors know that there are good coins in crappy holders. If you know what you are looking for, know how to grade, can identify a coin that has been played with, then you can find good coins in garbage plastic.

For example, I have found 2 Franklins in PCI holders that were problem free 64/65 no fbl, that I was able to get for the right money.

I'm glad there are a lot of people who only buy PCGS plastic and not NGC and other plastic. Means better chance for me to find good coins I want for a fair price.

[Count_Erfit]

AIYEEE! There is more to this than meets the eye.

 

[jom]

Grading in the coin world is so blown out of proportion it boggles the mind. There seems to me MORE importance on what the grade is than the coin itself. It's like the AT thing. I mean, if you like a coin (which includes both its looks AND the price) buy it...it's your money.

 

As to other holders: If you are an expert in the coins your collect (which is a judgement only YOU can know) the holder a coin is in (or raw) doesn't matter a damn. Because chances are YOU know more about grading than particular series than any grader at a TPG. Graders know a little about all the series. A specialist will know his/her series far better simply because their knowledge is concentrated. They will find value anywhere: Raw, NTC or PCGS. It doesn't matter.

 

jom

[Hoot]

Grading in the coin world is so blown out of proportion it boggles the mind. There seems to me MORE importance on what the grade is than the coin itself. It's like the AT thing. I mean, if you like a coin (which both its looks AND the price) buy it...it's your money.

 

jom

 

 

Hoot

[TerrapinWill]

There seems to me MORE importance on what the grade is than the coin itself. It's like the AT thing. I mean, if you like a coin (which both its looks AND the price) buy it...it's your money.

 

 

[EricG]

Boy , everywhere... I key in my most recent PCGS submission number to check the status on it. They're system says "Your shipment was entered on 01/01/1753. Further processing is pending." People were complaining about NGC being slow. How about 250+ years and counting?