Please identify which of these silver dollars is doctored or artificially toned!

[James_OldeTowne]

Here are ten silver dollars - 9 Morgans and a Peace dollar - that I've recently imaged. You can click each small image for a jumbo-fied version. None of these coins has ever been submitted for certification to my knowledge, and all of them seem to be genuinely uncirculated. None of them appears to be cleaned, though of course, that doesn't necessarily mean they haven't been. I would like your help in identifying which of these coins is blatantly artificially toned or doctored, and for that matter, which ones (if any) you think might be worth a premium. These are part of a consignment, and I want to accurately describe them.

 

THANKS IN ADVANCE! - James

 

#1 - 1878-S

 

#2 - 1880

 

#3 - 1880-S

 

#4 - 1881-S

 

#5 - 1883

 

#6 - 1884

 

#7 - 1888-O

 

#8 - 1898-O

 

#9 - 1902-O

 

#10 - 1922 Peace

[cpm9ball]

Sorry, James, you'll have to get expert advice from someone else. I buy what is pleasing to me, and I love the '98-O and the '02-O.

How much?

 

Chris

[kryptonitecomics]

Honestly....they are either all AT or all NT..........the toning is nearly identical on each coin including the Peace dollar which is darn near impossible to find.........but giving them the benefit of the doubt.....say they were all stored in the same album? It is conceivable that they could acquire similar toning especially if they were dipped prior to going in. It's just odd to see so many different dates and mint marks with the same toning........but again if they were stored together.....who knows?

 

My take is that the toning does not look natural on any of them nore whould I consider any to be worth a premium. I am not giving you a 100% guarantee that they are AT......but via the images I would say I am 70% sure that something doesn't look right with those coins.

 

[TerrapinWill]

I am no expert, but they all look NT to me, in fact the toning is the same on almost all of them. Maybe 8, 9, 10 might be AT...even so I still like them

[gmarguli]

None jump out to me as being AT.

 

#1, #2, #3, #4, #6, #7, #8 look 100% NT.

 

#9 & #10 I have very minor reservations about, but say NT.

 

#5 is a little more questionable, but I say NT.

[TerrapinWill]

I like #4 the best

[Oldtrader3]

The Peace dollar seems to me to be the most "off".

[kryptonitecomics]

I think this is a great thread in that it illustrates how difficult it can be for all of us to tell AT vs NT. I have looked at each scan numerous times and have even consulted with some of my fellow TCCS members and I still come up with AT toning. They just don't look at all natural to me and frankly the dead giveaway for me is the group together and not so much the merits of each individual coin.....though again the toning on each coin certainly looks like it would be very easy to duplicate by even a novice coin doctor.

 

I don't think anyone could give a complete 100% guarantee as to the authenticity of the toning unless we looked to previous owners for more info........but I will state in my unexpert but somewhat knowledgable opinion.......the coins are each AT

 

I told James I would even allow him to use some of my NGC free grading certificates if he wanted to send in a few to get an expert opinion.

[TerrapinWill]

I find the entire AT/NT thing difficult to grasp at times. If the coins were stored improperly and exposed to natural agents that cause that toning, would it be AT? How could one tell if the toning was artificially "sped up". If grading is subjective, couldnt the AT/NT be subjective as well.

[kryptonitecomics]

Yes......to a certain extent AT/NT are certainly subjective. The difference is usually defined as motive......which means the coins could look the same but according to motive one could be construed as AT while another under similar conditions could be given the NT stamp of approval. The great debate will never end on this topic....and I am ok with it because it's all about education.

 

What I am basically saying is that these coins don't look like they were improperly stored but rather they look like something was applied to the surface to cause the toning.....even if that something was heat.

 

How do I know this?

 

Pure speculation on my part based on one favorite area of collecting...toners. It is also based on seeing a ton of coins that are no brainer NT's like bag toned and Album toned morgans vs coins that have been played with.

 

ATcoins.com

 

[James_OldeTowne]

Please, more opinions from others, even if you are hesitant to guess. Although it is probably impossible to "prove" artificial or natural toning, this particular group of ten coins has an interesting history that may provide some insights.

 

And Kryptonite - thanks for agreeing to post your comments here.

 

James

[Bruceswar]

ALL NT.... but lets wait for James to shock us and tell us all AT

[GAB]

I really have no clue on the NT/AT business either, but I do have related question.

What happens (and when) to silver coins that have been dipped and encapsulated -

both if they stay encapsulated, and if they are taken out again, and left "in the air"?

Some of my old proofs, PCGS and NGC, are just too white to be "original". Will (would)

they retone eventually like any thing else made of silver?

[kryptonitecomics]

Not if there are no contaminants or toning agents introduced into their environments. Sure coins can and do tone in slabs but that's typically due to the slab make up or something that was on the coins surface prior to it being slabbed.

 

If you have a bright white coin now......it could conceivably still be that way 30 years from now if properly stored. If your old proofs are from 1950's or newer then their is a high probability that they were not dipped but rather were kept in the mint packaging or other holder that kept them from toning. If they are from the 1800's then I would agree that the chances are slim that they are untouched and have never been cleaned.

 

I personally would rather have a coin with an original skin then a 100 year old coin that is blast white

[rexcat]

I’m going to guess that all of the 10 coins where together when they got the burnt orange toning that seems common to them all, whether this was due to album storage, environment, or some type of manufactured toning…

Like I would have a clue.

 

But numbers 2 and 7 were already pretty toned; numbers 8, 9 and maybe couple others had some toning and the rest were pretty much white at the time they did come together.

[James_OldeTowne]

I guess there's been enough suspense. Let the following images (each of which can be enlarged) tell .... the rest of the story.

 

 

James

[EZ_E]

You mean that that package was unopened since 1967? Or was it resealed?

[James_OldeTowne]

I was the first person to open this package since it was stapled shut 38 years ago. This is part of consignment material that consists literally of hundreds of packages like this, about 95% of it being items that were shipped directly from the mint - unfortunately, in most cases, from the Canadian mint! I say unfortunately, because had most of the material been U.S. material, like the package I've shown here, his holdings would be worth a fortune. But there are a few instances, like this one, where the coins were privately packaged.

 

Most of the material has been opened, of course, but this particular collector was more of a "hoarder". Most often, in going through the material, I have found the packages were barely opened, then reclosed with a strip of Scotch tape, and put away. The consignor stated to me that he was so busy back then, that he literally didn't have time to enjoy looking through the items he purchased, and he merely put them away for future examination - a future that didn't occur for nearly 40 years.

 

I wish that stamps were more valuable, because as I mentioned in another thread, I have literally cubic yards of philatelic material - most of Canadian - that remains never-opened in it's original packaging.

 

The good news is, that his situation has provided me with an unparalleled opportunity to view truly fresh and original numismatic material. I plan to document other packages as I have this one, in order to maintain a photographic reference of what truly, unquestionably original, naturally-toned material looks like.

 

James

[EZ_E]

Wow, how exciting! Sounds very cool to search and find fresh discoveries like that.

 

Crazy how stamps are so worthless.

[kryptonitecomics]

Looks like it comes back to motive on these......the look can be easily duplicated for AT'd examples........but the act of putting these in paper holders and leaving them for so many years would qualify them as NT all the way.

 

I still think it would be interesting to see if they would be holdered if submitted?

 

I still don't think they are worth a premium...but that's just my opinion and I could see collectors forking out additional dollars for original unmessed with examples since you have the proper images to document the storage method over the past few decades.

 

Please keep us in the loop and let us know how the sales go etc

[James_OldeTowne]

Krypton, you bring up a very good point, and it's something I happen to agree with. Why shouldn't the storage of coins in sulphur-activated paper envelopes be considered a way to artificially tone coins? After all, there's more than one way to create color on silver coins.

 

In this case, there clearly was no "intent" on the consignor's part to tone the coins (indeed, by his own admission, my consignor very much prefers "brilliant white"), but if I stick some of my blast-white Morgans into envelopes like these and lay them on top of the water heater for a couple of weeks, hoping for similar results, does that imply artificial toning?

 

Hmmmmm....

 

James

[kryptonitecomics]

Yep that was my point......an intersting and informative thread none the less and I think this thread perfectly illustrates why you should buy what you like since motive usually can't be decerned prior to a purchase.

 

I also think the coins probably look slightly different in hand since you pictures from a distance show quite a bit of luster and the colors look quite different to me

[cpm9ball]

Wow, James! What other goodies must you have in store from that consignment. It's not fair that one person should have so much fun. I'd give anything to be able to change places with you.

 

Now, you still haven't answered my question. How much for the '98-O & '02-O?

 

Chris

[rexcat]

Yep that was my point......an intersting and informative thread none the less and I think this thread perfectly illustrates why you should buy what you like since motive usually can't be decerned prior to a purchase.

 

Yes, very interesting thread.

 

I feel that you should consider the coins to be NT because the process of toning took so many years and happen inadvertently due to method of storage, just like dollars that are bag toned which every one accepts as NT. I’ve read that “they” say that AT is characterized by colors that “float” on the surface of the instead of having depth like original toning, I tend to agree with that observation. I think that the lack of depth to toning happen when the oxidizing of the surface is forced to happen quickly rather then slowly years or decades.

 

 

Thanks for the cool story and pics James.

[James_OldeTowne]

((( Wow, James! What other goodies must you have in store from that consignment. It's not fair that one person should have so much fun. I'd give anything to be able to change places with you. )))

 

Actually, the huge majority of this stuff - and by that I mean 97% of it - is not great. The consignor bought most of his stuff directly from the Canadian or U.S. mint, and those guys do a pretty good job of shrink-wrapping and protecting coins from their environment such that they don't tone. For example, most all of the Canadian mint sets from the 1960s look exactly as brilliant and untoned as the day they were struck. However, there are a few boxed-dollars that are phenomenally beautiful, because the consignor DID open them up, and for some unknow reason, inserted packaging foam into the boxes in contact with the coin itself. I'll image those when I get a chance.

 

Honestly, that 97% of the consignment is almost not worth the time to go through the process of cataloging. There's nothing exciting about going through ten rolls of 1968 Canadian dollars, or rolls of BU 1968 Lincoln cents!

 

((( Now, you still haven't answered my question. How much for the '98-O & '02-O? )))

 

I would trade 38 years for both coins!

 

Chris

[cpm9ball]

((( Now, you still haven't answered my question. How much for the '98-O & '02-O? )))

 

I would trade 38 years for both coins!

 

Believe me, if it were wihin my power, I would give you 100 more years to enjoy the hobby.

 

Chris