PF70 NGC Kennedy Half and Roosevelt - Values?

[LateApex-migration]

I have 3 coins I am considering selling.

 

What are the 3 following coins worth?

 

1. 2002 S Clad PF70 Ultra Cameo Kennedy Half (NGC)

2. 2001 S Silver PF70 Roosevelt (NGC)

3. 2003 S Silver PF 70 Roosevelt (NGC)

 

Thanks!

 

Paul

[skippy]

You can get some idea by looking at the PCGS Daily Price Guide.

 

http://www.pcgs.com/prices/

 

The prices there tend to be on the high side.

[jayjay2789]

the average prices on ebay for the 2001 dime is about 35 and for the 2003 dime is about 25. the half would sell for considerably more at about 60.

[LateApex-migration]

When you look at www.pcgs.com/prices, you see $1100 for the Proof 70 Kennedy..... while I know pcgs.com can be high, $1100 vs. $60?

 

I have also learned that NGC pennies are valued well below PCGS versions as well on the open market.

 

Are there any other types that vary so far appart?

 

Or, is an easier question, what types (Morgans, for example) that are equal in market value, NGC compaired to PCGS?

[michael]

let me ask you this if you break both the same dated and graded ms/pf 70 pennies and kennedies out of their ngc/pcgs holders and now you got all raw coins waht are these coins worth?

 

or what is the currewnt demand of these coins??

[HaydenTubbs]

let me ask you this if you break both the same dated and graded ms/pf 70 pennies and kennedies out of their ngc/pcgs holders and now you got all raw coins waht are these coins worth?

 

or what is the currewnt demand of these coins??

 

What Michael is trying to say is "don't crack them out"!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

-Hayden

[LateApex-migration]

Got it. This might trigger a seperate thread.... How can I get my arms around the varience between market values of NGC vs PCGS graded coins?

 

I know other services are valued well below "the big 2" but are there any coin types that have similar values, weather graded by PCGS or NGC?

 

Pennies, DMPL/DPL, Proof 70 are 3 that I know of who PCGS graded coins bring much more than NGC, what else represents such a wide delta in price/market value?

 

I have only been in this hobby for about a year (and loving it) but I cant say I have seen a type that the market values NGC coins more than a PCGS coin.

 

BTW - I know, buy the coin, not the holder.

 

Can someone net this out for me?

[jayjay2789]

When i suggested price values for coins, i was referring to pf-70 in ngc holders. i never buy modern proof coins from pcgs because they sell fo hundreds of dollars. the price of the same coin in a ngc holder is greatly reduced then that which would be in a pcgs holder. For example, i bought a California silver NGC PF-70 quarter for about $40 on ebay while the pcgs price guide lists it at $400. I have seen pcgs coins sell for several hundred dollars more just because they were in pcgs holders. when viewing the survey here (http://www.pngdealers.com/public/SurveyResults2004_detail.cfm), i still dont understand why there is a premium when a coin is encased in a pcgs holder. i believe the market is equal when you get to older coins with very high grades. However, charging hundreds of dollars for a coin produced this year is irrational and the high prices should be left to the older coins. I have attached a picture of the auctions i won for 2004 and 2005 pf-70 ngc dimes.

 

my point explained here http://cgi.ebay.com/2005-PCGS-PR70DCAM-R...1QQcmdZViewItem vs http://cgi.ebay.com/2005-S-10C-Roosevelt...1QQcmdZViewItem

[michael]

what i am trying to say is and i can see you did not get it

 

is that the holder makes all of or most all of the value of these modern ms/pf70 coins

 

now as to why the pcgs holders are worth many multiples more than ngc is one simple thing

 

DEMAND the plastic holder and the tag that says pf70 or whatever wioth a common couple of dollar or less coin in this specific plastic and tag combination is what makes gives this coin value

 

and THE REASON WHY THE ONLY REASON WHY IS THERE IS DEMAND

 

the only thing that makes any coin valueable is only three things

 

demand demand demand

 

 

currently in this market there are many people out there with much money to spend and they have a desire to buy certain recently manufactured by the millions coins that are worth basically around a few dollars but put into pcgs plastic with a tag that says pf/ms70 or whatever they choose to pay hundreds if not thousands of dollars for these pieces of plastic and tags with 70 on them

 

this is okie and this is their choice

 

trying to figure out why is something that cant be answered

 

be it sheep following the crowd mass hysteria or maybe these coins are truly superb rare and valuable??

 

but i can see you did not get my simple answer to you

 

so let me explains it to you again

 

what are these coins worth out of their pf 70 holders??

 

what i am saying is this is the true value of their worth as it is the coin not the package it is wrapped up in that truly gives the coin its value

 

now if some people want to pay hundreds or thousands of dollars this is good and okie

 

for me an ignorant unseasoned collector

 

i find that if i see a coin

 

say an xf45 1864 three dollar gold piece and it is in an ngc or pcgs holder it is a scarce coin maybe with 150 or less known

 

and lets say this is a choice original thickly skinneed coin with great eye appeal and greenish gold fully original surfaces

 

lets say in the holder it is a 2500.00 retail coin

 

 

 

now i break this coin out of its holder now for me this coin is still worth the 2500 price

 

if i take a pf70 dcam pcgs 2003-s lincoln cent i really do not know the value lets say 400.00 if i break this coin out of its holder what is it worth raw?? or let me ask you this would ytou be willinh to pay 400 for the coin? 200?? 100? 75?? 50? 10? 5?

 

answer this question and the omnly person who can answer this question for yourself

 

currently there is huge demand for pcgs pf70 coins

 

hence the price

 

now for me i would feel really uncomfortable with paying 400 or there abouts for a pcgs pf70 dcam 2003-s cent

 

and this is me not you or all the tohers buying waht they want to in this market

 

all i am saying is that today there is huge demand hence the price

 

so

 

BUY WHAT YOU WANT AS A COLLECTOR WITH DISCRETIONARY FUNDS

 

 

do you understand

 

man you guys are thick

[HaydenTubbs]

what i am trying to say is and i can see you did not get it

 

is that the holder makes all of or most all of the value of these modern ms/pf70 coins

 

now as to why the pcgs holders are worth many multiples more than ngc is one simple thing

 

DEMAND the plastic holder and the tag that says pf70 or whatever wioth a common couple of dollar or less coin in this specific plastic and tag combination is what makes gives this coin value

 

and THE REASON WHY THE ONLY REASON WHY IS THERE IS DEMAND

 

the only thing that makes any coin valueable is only three things

 

demand demand demand

 

 

currently in this market there are many people out there with much money to spend and they have a desire to buy certain recently manufactured by the millions coins that are worth basically around a few dollars but put into pcgs plastic with a tag that says pf/ms70 or whatever they choose to pay hundreds if not thousands of dollars for these pieces of plastic and tags with 70 on them

 

this is okie and this is their choice

 

trying to figure out why is something that cant be answered

 

be it sheep following the crowd mass hysteria or maybe these coins are truly superb rare and valuable??

 

but i can see you did not get my simple answer to you

 

so let me explains it to you again

 

what are these coins worth out of their pf 70 holders??

 

what i am saying is this is the true value of their worth as it is the coin not the package it is wrapped up in that truly gives the coin its value

 

now if some people want to pay hundreds or thousands of dollars this is good and okie

 

for me an ignorant unseasoned collector

 

i find that if i see a coin

 

say an xf45 1864 three dollar gold piece and it is in an ngc or pcgs holder it is a scarce coin maybe with 150 or less known

 

and lets say this is a choice original thickly skinneed coin with great eye appeal and greenish gold fully original surfaces

 

lets say in the holder it is a 2500.00 retail coin

 

 

 

now i break this coin out of its holder now for me this coin is still worth the 2500 price

 

if i take a pf70 dcam pcgs 2003-s lincoln cent i really do not know the value lets say 400.00 if i break this coin out of its holder what is it worth raw?? or let me ask you this would ytou be willinh to pay 400 for the coin? 200?? 100? 75?? 50? 10? 5?

 

answer this question and the omnly person who can answer this question for yourself

 

currently there is huge demand for pcgs pf70 coins

 

hence the price

 

now for me i would feel really uncomfortable with paying 400 or there abouts for a pcgs pf70 dcam 2003-s cent

 

and this is me not you or all the tohers buying waht they want to in this market

 

all i am saying is that today there is huge demand hence the price

 

so

 

BUY WHAT YOU WANT AS A COLLECTOR WITH DISCRETIONARY FUNDS

 

 

do you understand

 

man you guys are thick

Michael,I know what you meant since you have often voiced your opinion on TPG'd coins. I making a joke,hence the

 

-Hayden

[cladking]

 

 

 

 

if i take a pf70 dcam pcgs 2003-s lincoln cent i really do not know the value lets say 400.00 if i break this coin out of its holder what is it worth raw?? or let me ask you this would ytou be willinh to pay 400 for the coin? 200?? 100? 75?? 50? 10? 5?

 

 

This is laughable. Or at least it would be if not so sad.

 

Where in the hell are you going to get a $2500 modern or ultramodern. You know nothing whatsoever about these markets as evidenced by your repitition of the same inaccuracies over and over. I know very little about buying and selling these coins but at least I know not to break one out of the holder and offer it to you. I also know that if I want to sell a coin with a very limited market that I take it to a specialist not the corner coin shop.

 

What you can't seem to understand is that there are huge numbers of collectors seeking old crusty gems and a small handfull collecting any of the moderns (other than newbies). The industry is set up to buy and sell the old coins and most collectors just make fun of the new coins and new collectors. This is why rare classics trade everywhere for huge amounts of money while much rarer moderns are a niche market with low prices.

 

Of course in the long run making fun of the newbies might prove to have been a very poor decision.

[michael]

no one is making any fun of any newbees

 

a coin shuold stand on its own merits and should be worth at the very least 65% raw waht it is worth in the holder

 

instead of attacking people just state your own opinions

 

and please do not pm me anymore and tell me in the pm you agree with me and this makes you really upset when i say things like this as you got lots of this stuff and you do not want the HOLDERED MODERN MARKET TO CRASH

 

holdered modern coins where the value is mostly in the holder

 

is so much different than modern coins themselves

 

which are okie

 

 

if you wanbt to collect plastic holders so be it just do not quote me ortake me out of context make your own original statements i do not cut and paste your thoughts and then insult you

 

reality is always a harsh mistress

[HaydenTubbs]

[michael]

just make sure that popcorn is extra buttered

[cladking]

no one is making any fun of any newbees

 

a coin shuold stand on its own merits and should be worth at the very least 65% raw waht it is worth in the holder

 

instead of attacking people just state your own opinions

 

and please do not pm me anymore and tell me in the pm you agree with me and this makes you really upset when i say things like this as you got lots of this stuff and you do not want the HOLDERED MODERN MARKET TO CRASH

 

holdered modern coins where the value is mostly in the holder

 

is so much different than modern coins themselves

 

which are okie

 

 

if you wanbt to collect plastic holders so be it just do not quote me ortake me out of context make your own original statements i do not cut and paste your thoughts and then insult you

 

reality is always a harsh mistress

 

...So collecting raw moderns is fine and the problem only arises when they are slabbed.

 

It should follow that moderns are worth more when busted out of the holder.

 

Perhaps collectors, dealers, and the market don't agree with you.

[HaydenTubbs]

just make sure that popcorn is extra buttered

 

I almost thought I was on the PCGS' forums there for a minute with this Flame War™.

I'm not endorsing anyone's opinion here but it nice to see the boards get some action!

[Oldtrader3]

The Registries are contributing to this PF70DCAM mania. Look at the top 30 Proof Kennedy, Ike, et cetera sets on the PCGS Registry. PF70DCAM PCGS coins drive ranking in those registries. PCGS will not accept NGC slabs, whereas NGC will accept PCGS slabs. This drives much of the pretense (belief???) that PCGS is "better". His defunct holiness, HRH has been driving this marketing hype for years and many believe it.

[EZ_E]

Cladking has certainly educated me via his comments about the grade rarities of many moderns. Alot of this is a legitimate market. However, I feel that the MS/PR 70 market is a bubble, which, as michael stated, is puffed up by demand alone. If this demand were removed then the bubble would collapse upon itself.

 

I personally avoid hype in the coin market. Sure, one may make money but it is a huge risk. I prefer to purchase coins that are worth the same, whether slabbed or not. Afterall, as a type collector, I bust my 19th century proof types out of the holder to place in a Dansco album. But, my coins are solid, I know how to grade, and I purchase my coins from a very reputable dealer, i.e. Mark Feld. When it comes time to reslab these coins, they will at least grade at the level which I purchased them. Many will probably upgrade. Moral: If I collected 70-level coins in this manner, cracked them out for an album and expect them to regrade 70 then I'd be sorely mistaken. Their values would drastically plummet apart from the TPGS's blessing. This is all michael is saying. Collect how you will but remember this wisdom.

[James_OldeTowne]

I would strongly urge you to sell these on eBay. You simply will not get a fair market offer selling outright to a dealer - I know, because I've tried. However, MS-70 or PF-70 coins do well on eBay regardless of whether they are NGC or PCGS, and that's the plain truth. You'll encounter an excessive number of arguments about "whose better", but the bottom line is that they BOTH do well on eBay, and you will not get better offers through direct sale. Honestly, don't waste your time or energy worrying about the "brand" of the grade. 70 in EITHER holder is prime-time material for eBay.

 

Now, I'm talking about generic modern coins. If these were, say Barber halves, that would be a much different story!

 

Put them on eBay, and let 'em rip!

 

James

[IGWT]

I feel that the MS/PR 70 market is a bubble, which, as michael stated, is puffed up by demand alone. If this demand were removed then the bubble would collapse upon itself.

 

Well . . . the supply side is also a variable in the equation. Wariness of the MS/PR 69-70 market is attributable in part to the sense -- whether right or wrong -- that the supply is controlled almost exclusively by TPG opinions. There is an ephemeral quality to a market that is so reliant on opinions that can change from one day to the next. I realize that the same principle applies to classics; but, the degree of TPG control over the market is far more powerful in ultra-grade moderns. In fact, it seems to me that the TPGs play a large role in making the market in this area of collecting. Perhaps this situation gives rise to Michael's concern about the price of "conditional rarity" modern coinage being too dependent on the slab.

[cybersharque-migration]

/rant

I don't pretend to be an expert on the coin market, but do you think (really, stop a minute and think) that the PCGS/NGC delta might be caused by people who buy the slab and not the coin? Do you think it's bring driven by people whose investment advisers sell them some cockamamie story about reediculous ROI for coin portfolios? Investment advisers stand to make a higher commission when they trade PCGS slabs precisely because they have managed to drive up the price of those slabs. Were not for the fact that the SEC & FTC are so understaffed that the securities and fraudulent trade laws are a joke, the whole slabbing industry would have been on the hot seat long ago. As it is, the only place one can expect enforcement is from state attorneys-general, and what a fun time THAT is going to turn into. Especially since those little weevils have figured out that they can prosecute class actions, earn enormous fees for protecting the public from the rapacious schemes of the investment-scam-operators, and often find ways to direct the "reimbursement" of the victims into places that a normal person would never think appropriate.

rant\

[cladking]

/rant

I don't pretend to be an expert on the coin market, but do you think (really, stop a minute and think) that the PCGS/NGC delta might be caused by people who buy the slab and not the coin? Do you think it's bring driven by people whose investment advisers sell them some cockamamie story about reediculous ROI for coin portfolios? Investment advisers stand to make a higher commission when they trade PCGS slabs precisely because they have managed to drive up the price of those slabs. Were not for the fact that the SEC & FTC are so understaffed that the securities and fraudulent trade laws are a joke, the whole slabbing industry would have been on the hot seat long ago. As it is, the only place one can expect enforcement is from state attorneys-general, and what a fun time THAT is going to turn into. Especially since those little weevils have figured out that they can prosecute class actions, earn enormous fees for protecting the public from the rapacious schemes of the investment-scam-operators, and often find ways to direct the "reimbursement" of the victims into places that a normal person would never think appropriate.

rant\

 

I think it's entirely possible some moderns are being bought as speculation because it is growing very rapidly but without exception when I hear someone touting coins for investment it's classic coins or something which can be acquired in quantity. While proofs can be acquired in quantity it's not possible to get large quantities of very high grade coins.

 

Certainly investing in PR-70 coins is a highly risky business and is very unadvisable. While I wouldn't suggest investing in any coins these may be riskier than most simply because they are dependent on a continuation of the trend which places a great deal of value on quality. There is a very small difference in quality of all proofs so the price is dependent on this trend not reversing. It's likely some of the buyers of these coins can't see this difference which can make their attraction to the coins ephemeral. There's a real difference and if a collector enjoys owning the best coins and can see it then it makes sense to pay the price, otherwise it's a speculation (of sorts at least) and one gains market and other risks.

 

As Michael says "BUY WHAT YOU WANT AS A COLLECTOR WITH DISCRETIONARY FUNDS". But as an investor you'd do well to do as in other fields and buy what's cheap, out of favor, overlooked, or underpriced. Of course each would-be investor needs to determine what meets these qualifications for himself. Collectibles are a risky place to speculate since prices are the result of demand and demand changes over the short and long term. Your best bet is to have Michaels passion for coins and collect whatever you find interesting. You'll do as well or better than anyone and you'll profit every time in the enjoyment you derive from the hobby.