Are the newer NGC slabs more "bubbly?"

[Count_Erfit]

I have always noticed a somewhat "grainy" or "bubbly" look to the NGC holders, but I just got a brown large cent that was very recently slabbed. The plastic actually makes it difficult to see the dark coin. Tilting it ..sort of... helps but the "texture" is still there. It (the surface of the plastic) almost appears like proof gold with a "watery" texture, but comes off showing whitish instead of clear. And it appears as if it may only be on the INSIDE surface unless it's an optical illusion.

 

Is this a recent thing? Is it a mistake?

 

[Tradedollarnut]

About 4 years ago, I had the same thing on a couple of proof twenty cent pieces. It's an ongoing problem that really hinders viewing the coin.

[Oldtrader3]

These surface effects are a function of the injection molding cycle which makes the slab components. If the plastic is injected too fast into the mold or the mold is too cold, the plastic surface becomes wavy and/or less transparent. Internal stresses in the plastic cause this condition. Usually these imperfections are caused by attempting to make more parts per minute with a fast injection cycle and a cold mold curing cycle.

[James_OldeTowne]

There is definitely some sort of difference in the composition of the plastic. Years ago, the plastic seemed much more brittle, whereas today, it is pliable and doesn't shatter easily (for example, when cracking a coin out). I agree with you about the way that the NGC plastic inhibits viewing the coin as well, though all slabs seem to have that effect to some degree. This may sound crazy to some, but I think the PCI and ANACS capsules may allow for the clearest viewing of all the slabs out there.

 

James

[cointagious]

This may sound crazy to some, but I think the PCI and ANACS capsules may allow for the clearest viewing of all the slabs out there.

 

 

 

It's not just you.

[michael]

This may sound crazy to some, but I think the PCI and ANACS capsules may allow for the clearest viewing of all the slabs out there.

 

 

 

get the damn plastic fixed on your slabs ngc you cant see the coin and there is no reason for this you cheap mother grabbers

[Oldtrader3]

I believe that some slabs use to be crystal styrene, which is clear and brittle. Now they probably are PolyTerphylate or Acrylic, which is tougher material but not as optically clear. They also have to be sonically welded which dictates the materials somewhat. I notice that the PCGS slab has a bluish cast to it that distorts toning color.

[Hoot]

You have an amazing knowlege of plastics Charlie! Detriment of your profession, I suppose!

 

I have some NGC slabs that are chrystal clear and others that are quite bubbly. It makes viewing the coin properly, let alone imaging, a near impossibility.

 

Hoot

[Oldtrader3]

High injection speed into a mold causes shear (breaking of liquid surface tension) and resultant bubbles. In a cold mold these bubbles freeze before the air can be compressed out to the surface of the hot molded plastic and be pushed out through mold vents.

 

In real life, I was a Molding Engineer and Mold Tool Shop Manager years ago, before being Director of Manufacturing and Worldwide management assignments. This experience was some years ago, but many things are still the same. Automated Real Time Molding Process Control is the greatest change. We used to mold 10" Styrene Computer Reels for 3-M that were flat and not wavy within .003"TIR in 10.5" diameter. There were only (2) shops in the country that could hold those specs. Both were in So. Cal. Most stuff that they mold commercially is junk compared to those specs.

[James_OldeTowne]

((( I notice that the PCGS slab has a bluish cast to it that distorts toning color.)))

 

Yes, I agree with this also. The best slabs PCGS ever had for viewing coins was the old rattlers. They were crystal-clear and distortion free. Curiously, the same is true of ACG slabs .

 

James

[BankNote1]

I have to agree about the NGC slabs! They have gotten worse lately, IMO. It is even hard to get a decent photo of the newer NGC holders!

The ANACS do seem to be the clearest!

[4ucoin-migration]

I'll add my voice of agreement. PCI and even NTC holders have clearer plastic. If these graders can afford to deliver higher quality holders, when will NGC make a change in it provider or demand better quality ? The cost of grading is not cheap. Saving a few cents on the holder is short sighted at best.

 

NGC provides a great service- far better then lesser companies. But, saving a few cents on holders puts NGC reputation for quality at risk. When a collector spends hunders or thousands for a coin, they want to be able to see it.

[michael]

please read and re-read the above many times over ngc

[HaydenTubbs]

I wouldn't know,all I ever get from NGC are those handy-dandy body bags,which aren't bubbly in case you wondered...

[Scott_Schechter]

A few comments on our holder materials…before any material modifications were made to our holder, NGC had extensive tests conducted to find the best barrier for the long term preservation of your coins. Once identified, we realized that we had to make a trade off. We chose to minimally sacrifice the clarity of our holder in exchange for offering the best storage option, one which reduced the likelihood of spotting and other changes to coins’ surfaces. We felt that this decision would be supported by the industry. In contrast to what has been posted, the clearer plastics were in fact much cheaper, and we spend significantly more on our material in terms of higher material cost as well as higher manufacturing cost due to longer mold cycles.

[James_OldeTowne]

Scott,

 

I would be really interested in the criteria for determing what the "minimal" acceptable effect was, because to me (and apparently others as well), the effect is noticeable. Not only does it seem to hinder first-hand viewing, but imaging is more difficult, too.

 

One undesirable side-effect of the change is that coins in NGC holders are automatically at a disadvantage when compared to identical coins in other holders that are more clear, or in comparison to unholdered coins. Recently, I have cracked out several copper coins, and I was (pleasantly) surprised at how much better they look outside the holders. The same seems to hold true of silver coins.

 

For what my opinion's worth, I think NGC needs to re-evaluate this issue. It can only have a deflationary effect on the perceived value of NGC coins vs. those of other holders, and that is not good.

 

James

[RGT]

James, that sounds like it could be a prime reason that NGC to PCGS crossovers work better when the coin is cracked out first. And all this time we've been blaiming it on PCGS bias to NGC coins.

 

I've noticed the "bubbly" texture on the NGC holders for a couple of years now. I haven't cracked out any NGC coins but I can only imagine that the granular look of the plastic has to affect the look of the coin.

[4ucoin-migration]

Scott: NGC should take a fresh look at this issue. I recently purchased two coins from a member of EAC (Early American Coppers). As many on this board know, the EAC has a very strict grading system. I submitted the coins to NGC and, indeed, the coins graded very well at MS66 RB. But, when I received the coins back from NGC, I finally understood why so many EAC members "free" coins from their plastic prison. The coins looked MUCH better prior to NGC plastic. In fact, had I not known better, I would have sworn they were different coins.

 

It is clear that some of the collectors who have posted here know way more about plastic then I ever will. Based on their posts, the process (speed and temperature) of the molding makes the difference in the clarity. Thus, it appears that using the same plastic but processed more carefully will result in better/ clearer holders. It simply does not make sense that such changes would decrease the protective nature of the plastic. In fact, with less oxygen in the holders (i.,e bubbles), it would seem the protective nature would be enhanced.

 

Perhaps if you named the manufacturer of the holders we could solicit their direct reply to our concerns ? Please help. Your loyal customers expressing dissatisfaction.

[RGT]

Well, after almost three years, NGC (like a recovering alcoholic) has finally admitted that it has a problem. Word on the street (across the street, actually) has it that NGC will be using a new clear plastic in their holders soon. This problem has been around a while and was reported at least as far back as Feb. 2003 .

 

To me this will be a welcome change. Now if they would just offer a free reholdering service for all those bubbly slabs they have been putting out the last three years...

[coinman1794]

Yes, NGC is starting to use the new slabs on a limited basis. I got one a few weeks ago. It's crystal clear and the edge feels a bit different, but it looks the same, otherwise.

 

There is a post about it over in ASK NGC, I believe.

[bigmoose-migration]

Vindication at last!!

[Count_Erfit]

I put the post on across the street. Based on a coin I spoke with Scott Schlecter about. Did a reholder into the NEW plastic and it is....

 

NIGHT AND DAY.

 

This new NGC plastic is as clear as any available.

 

The whole coin takes on a new appearance. It is CRYSTAL clear.

 

A welcome change and a big improvement. There will be no need to try to improve on the new plastic. It is NICE!

 

[James_OldeTowne]

It's about doggone time!! I recently got so frustrated trying to image a toned Seated dime (NGC MS-63) that I gave up and busted it out. I hope the rumors are true!!!!!!

 

James

[EZ_E]

These surface effects are a function of the injection molding cycle which makes the slab components. If the plastic is injected too fast into the mold or the mold is too cold, the plastic surface becomes wavy and/or less transparent. Internal stresses in the plastic cause this condition. Usually these imperfections are caused by attempting to make more parts per minute with a fast injection cycle and a cold mold curing cycle.

 

 

Yeah, that's exactly what I was thinking.