some open questions to david lange at ngc about matte proof lincolns

[michael]

david if i might be allowed to pick your brain and i am sure some many on here will also be quite interested

 

how many survive of the matte proof lincolns?

 

how where they issued and stored in their early years?

 

what colors do the matte lincoln proofs usually come in?

 

what are the more uncommon colors?

 

how many survive in gem condition ?

 

and why are so many matte proof lincolns so dark/brown and streaky , just plain fugly and ugly??

which are the most scarce dates??

 

which dates are the best struck well made??

 

 

thanks david and hope you can offer some sort of little monograph on the above questions and your other thoughts that come to mind as well

 

and maybe others who read this thread might have some questions for david lange concerning matte proof lincolns

[DWLange]

david if i might be allowed to pick your brain and i am sure some many on here will also be quite interested

 

how many survive of the matte proof lincolns?

I would estimate 50-70% of the mintage.

 

 

how where they issued and stored in their early years?

They were issued in a small tissue paper, folded over. The same applied whether purchased in person or by mail.

A few collectors placed them face up within felt-lined coin cabinets, but most simply placed them in kraft paper envelopes until the first albums appeared in the late 1920s.

 

what colors do the matte lincoln proofs usually come in?

Most have been dipped over the years and are found in various shades of unnatural red, often with blotchy or irregular toning. Unmolested proofs are rarely red, more often glossy brown or a deep magenta or purple.

 

what are the more uncommon colors?

A few are bright green, and this can be very attractive. When gradeable, these non-red colors are labeled BN, so you shouldn't assume that a PF BN coin is not pretty.

 

how many survive in gem condition ?

The census report speaks for itself.

 

and why are so many matte proof lincolns so dark/brown and streaky , just plain fugly and ugly??

Poor storage, combined with unskilled cleaning in past years.

 

which are the most scarce dates??

1909, both varieties, is quite scarce, as is 1916. 1915 is slightly scarce, but the remaining dates are just about equal in overall numbers.

 

which dates are the best struck well made??

Hands down it is 1916, since the obverse master hub was redone that year with outstanding detail. This looks best in a proof, but even a well struck, early die state currency piece is a delight.

[nwcs]

Very interesting to read, thanks!

[Merc]

Great information.

 

How about some info on the 1917 matte Proof Lincolns. Will one ever be certified as the real thing?

[DWLange]

Never say never, but the two pieces submitted here as alleged proofs have been well struck, early die state currency pieces. They were very deceptive but ultimately did not match the quality or finish of 1909-16 proofs.

[Hoot]

Fabulous information - thank you Michael and Dave! This is a fantastic thread.

 

Hoot

[chinook]

WOW I love this thread.

 

David, thank you for the info.

 

I have a few questions also. You mentioned that about 50-70% survive today. Of that how many would you consider to be attractively toned such as some of the examples I have posted below?

 

Also what are the factors that influence the grading of these coins? Obviously contact marks, carbon spots and luster are important but how do they rank in terms of weight? Also do die polish marks detract from the grade?

 

Why do you think this area has not garnered the kind of attention that other series have such as Morgans or toned Indian Head cents?

 

Do you think the proposed commemoration of the Lincoln cent in 2009 will

increase their popularity?

 

What colors or combinations do you personally find most attractive?

 

Thank you very much.

 

[Hoot]

Chinook - I've contacted my personal injury lawyer about your pics - stopped my heart and I had to dial 911.

 

Will take coins as settlement.

 

Hoot

[michael]

thanks david lange for your great information on the matte proofs!!!!

 

and dave great well monster colored matte proofs i hope david lange will comment on your questions

[chinook]

Chinook - I've contacted my personal injury lawyer about your pics - stopped my heart and I had to dial 911.

 

Will take coins as settlement.

 

Hoot

 

I think you are just foolin' with me. Afterall, if your heart was stopped how could you call 911?

[RobertB]

Great post. Great questions and superb answers. Thank you both.

[Jabba-migration]

Very good info!!!

Chinook thank you for postind the pics, they are very nice coins

[TomB]

Fabulous topic, Michael, and thank you David for taking the time to answer the questions.

 

As for chinook, you know you almost killed Hoot, next time post a few more coins because Hoot must die!!!

 

[chinook]

Fabulous topic, Michael, and thank you David for taking the time to answer the questions.

 

As for chinook, you know you almost killed Hoot, next time post a few more coins because Hoot must die!!!

 

 

I might just have to make a trip to Montana to see to that first hand.

[ldhair]

Matte proofs are really special coins.

The only image I have.

[Hoot]

Hoot must die!!!

 

 

hOOT

[DWLange]

David, thank you for the info.

 

I have a few questions also. You mentioned that about 50-70% survive today. Of that how many would you consider to be attractively toned such as some of the examples I have posted below?

 

I have a few questions also. You mentioned that about 50-70% survive today. Of that how many would you consider to be attractively toned such as some of the examples I have posted below?

Very few of the coins I see are attractive. Most have been dipped at some time in the past. Some of these still look natural enough to get slabbed by the second tier grading services, but they don't appeal to me.

 

Also what are the factors that influence the grading of these coins? Obviously contact marks, carbon spots and luster are important but how do they rank in terms of weight? Also do die polish marks detract from the grade?

Contact marks and striking quality are rarely factors with proofs. Luster and overall surface quality are the most important things, followed by the attractiveness of the color. Die polishing lines are rarely seen with matte proofs, but they can have some negative impact on the grading of brilliant proofs.

 

Why do you think this area has not garnered the kind of attention that other series have such as Morgans or toned Indian Head cents?

Just as toning is an acquired taste, matte proofs appeal only to more sophisticated collectors. 90% of collectors like coins that are bright and shiny. Also, the lack of date continuity limits the appeal of the matte proof series. Finally, if more collectors appreciated the appeal of early die states and full strikes these coins would have a broader market.

 

Do you think the proposed commemoration of the Lincoln cent in 2009 will

increase their popularity?

No.

 

What colors or combinations do you personally find most attractive?

I love the blue steel of your 1910. In fact, I have in my own collection Eliasberg's 1910 proof cent, and it's slightly blue, though not as nice as yours.

[chinook]

David,

 

Thank you so much for taking the time answer my questions. I hope that someday we can meet and I can show you these coins (and a few others) in person.

[RWB]

The following may be helpful as a supplement to David Lang’s excellent replies to questions about matte proof Lincoln cents. The table shows the date and number of proof cents accepted by the coiner (Robert Clark – the information is from his log book and are confirmed by daily mintage records for 1911-1914). The number actually struck was often much greater than the quantity accepted. These figures differ from those in the popular "Guide Book of United States Coins" in part because the “Red Book” seems to attempt to report the quantity sold.

 

One Cent Bronze, 1909-1916

Collector’s Proof Coins Accepted by the Coiner for Sale

 

Date Accepted

 

Indian Cent

1/5/09 500

2/20/09 500

3/6/09 500

3/23/09 500

5/19/09 500

 

Lincoln Cent – VDB

7/30/09 1,000

 

Lincoln Cent – No VDB

8/16/09 1,000

8/23/09 820

12/3/09 500

12/23/09 298

1/7/10 483

1/21/10 485

2/14/10 499

3/29/10 498

5/19/10 500

5/28/10 500

8/1/10 200

9/1/10 298

9/29/10 293

12/2/10 277

12/28/10 25

12/29/10 25

1/13/11 278

2/2/11 273

2/17/11 410

4/24/11 270

5/19/11 148

7/31/11 291

10/14/11 286

10/31/11 180

11/6/11 89

12/19/11 186

1/2/12 126

1/3/12 88

1/20/12 100

2/7/12 275

4/16/12 200

5/13/12 200

6/8/12 320

10/12/12 48

11/20/12 100

11/26/12 350

12/14/12 100

1/14/13 260

1/23/13 375

3/5/13 500

3/20/13 300

4/30/13 220

5/26/13 250

10/11/13 110

11/18/13 285

11/25/13 233

12/10/13 200

12/24/13 250

1/29/14 380

4/7/14 250

7/30/14 185

10/7/14 100

11/18/14 200

12/23/14 300

3/24/15 200

8/12/15 200

10/25/15 300

12/4/15 250

12/23/15 200

3/24/16 200

10/17/16 200

12/26/16 200

 

Note: Proofs were struck when the supply became low, or when a large order was received from a collector. Chicago beer magnate John Beck is known to have ordered 100 minor proof sets at a time on several occasions. All of the 1,000 Lincoln VDB cents made in July 1909 could have been purchased for $20 if someone had advance notice of their release. At the end of the calendar year (although sometimes at the end of January of the new year) unsold collector’s proofs were mixed with ordinary coins and placed in circulation at face value.

By 1912 the mint’s policy of not making collector's proofs until after the same denomination had been struck for circulation had alienated many collectors, and sales dropped dramatically. Additionally, many collectors did not like the matte-finish minor coins or sandblast gold pieces.

[chinook]

Thats some great info RWB.

 

Is it possible to notate which dates were minted at which times? For instance, did they start to mint the 1916s on December 4, 1915?

[RWB]

chinook:

So far as can be determined from records I have examined (several hundred thousand pages), the Philadelphia Mint did not make collector's proofs until the beginning of the calendar year. (At least during the 1880-1916 period.) This is unlike the modern mint where proof and commemorative coins are routinely produced prior to the date on the coin. Thus, 1916 matte proof cents were made in three batches: March 24, 1916; October 17, 1916; and December 26, 1916 with 200 acceptable pieces made on each date. Robert Clark does not say why coins were rejected, although other documents indicate rejection was due to defective strikes, cracked or clashed dies, other damage during production or damage due to handling. In some instances, nearly as many coins were rejected as were accepted, so the quantities produced were often quite a bit greater than either those accepted by the coiner or those reported sold.

None of these really tell us how many collector's proofs left the mint, although the quantity sold would provide a minimum. Resubmissions make grading service population reports unreliable except, possibly, as an indicator of relative abundance. Many years of first-hand observation, such as possessed by David Lang, are probably the best guide: (“Which are the most scarce dates?? 1909, both varieties, is quite scarce, as is 1916. 1915 is slightly scarce, but the remaining dates are just about equal in overall numbers.”)

[chinook]

RWB,

 

That is very interesting as it would put the 1916 mintage at 600 rather than the popularly reported 1050.

[RWB]

Clark's log book also shows 600 proof nickels accepted in 1916. For 1915, the cent and nickel proofs accepted were 1,150, and 1,050 respectively. The Red Book uses 1,050 for 1916 proof cents, but the source is not documented. From 1912 to 1916 the difference in accepted cent and nickel coins is approx 100 per year. This is consistent with the well-documented policy of selling minor coins as sets.

 

Robert Woolley, the mint director in the first half of 1916, had promised collector's proofs of the new silver coinage. His successor, von Engelken, scrapped that idea. Both 1916 minor coins are from new hubs probably cut by Charles Barber, who was also given first crack at new designs for the silver coins in 1915. Barber may have hoped to remake the entire coinage series to improve sharpness and detail, but that didn't happen.

[michael]

[leeg]

Super Information! Thanks for the TTT Michael!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

 

 

"SOLD"

 

 

"SOLD"

 

 

 

 

 

 

[WoodenJefferson]

Great informational topic to be brought to the top again.

 

As I understand it, the technique and methods used to create the dies for the matte finish Lincoln’s has been lost forever. Is that true or is that just another “collectors legend”

[RWB]

They apparently sandblasted the dies before hardening, then struck a few hundred pieces on a medal press. The die surface quickly eroded, so new sandblasted dies had to be provided at frequent intervals. Presumably, the "expired" proof dies were then used for regular coinage. (There seem to be a lot of “unusual” cents from this era, too.)

 

I have some die and production information from 1909 and later but not quite enough to say how many matte proof pieces were made from a die pair before they were judged unsuitable.

 

Techniques for making the gold proofs and certain silver proofs are now documented, also.

[chinook]

(There seem to be a lot of “unusual” cents from this era, too.)

 

Could you please expand on this topic?

[michael]

sure

 

the worn out sandblast dies that then strike circulation issue coins , the first ones off of the dies llok a little like proofs but no brainer are not if you know and understand what you are looking at

 

also my matte proof friend what about the real and esoteric roman finish matte proof 1909-p lincoln cents

 

they exist oh yes and if a bear poops in the woods and no one sees or hears it did he still go??

 

the information is out there YET to be conclusively found but they still exist none the less

 

of course you need a full red gem to see as such but when you do they are unmistakeable IF you understand and know what you are looking at

 

but of course these matte proofs are not really collected as such until recently and still there is little information, appreciation or numismatic underdtanding/scholarship about them

 

hopefully this will change

[michael]

hoot should live a long time he gots lotsa more articles to write about proof 19th century coinage