Scenerio: What Would You Do VS What Would You WANT To Do?

[braddick]

Say you offer a pretty decent coin (about $4,000.00) to a large dealership. He received the coin and now makes a counter-offer about 20% less than sight seen quote placed over the phone just a few days earlier.

(You know the coin is 'all there', but he Dealer claims it may have to sit in his inventory for awhile and thus the new, lower offer).

Instead of having him ship the coin back you, possibly in haste, you agree to the new terms/price and it's a "done deal".

 

A few days later you happen upon the exact coin, freshly imagined, on the Dealer's website at a price about twice what was given to you. A week or so later you see a SOLD next to the image as the coin has been removed from the Dealer's inventory.

 

What would you do? What would you like to do?

[HaydenTubbs]

This has happened to me before so I can relate to this,while it is irritating and you may feel cheated there is nothing you can do about it.Basicly you agreed on the price to sell the coin and anything that happens after that is out of your hands.

What I would like to do is call the dealer up and give him a piece of my mind and demand the 20%!!! Of course as we all know, I'd just get laughed at.

[cladking]

I rarely accept counter-offers after a deal has been made. It would anger me to have a counter-offer in this case but if I accepted it, then I wouldn not deal with this company or individual again.

 

Counter-offers are only a little more acceptable when dealing with sight unseen coins.

[Coinbuf]

Pat I had this happen just very recently however I did'nt accept the counter offer. We agreed to have him(the dealer) attempt to sell the item at the next show which in fact he was able to do. My transaction differs from yours in two ways, first I was not unhappy that after seeing the coin in hand the dealer was willing to offer less. I understand that not everyone sees a coin the same way, however I also was'nt ready to sell for the second offer. Second buy working out a second solution he was able to sell the coin for what I wanted and make a commission for himself so everyone's happey at the end of the day.

 

In your situation I would be very unhappy with the unethical way the dealer treated me and would send him a very sharp letter and never deal with them again. I would also be sure to he knows that I would relay this story(with names) to every collector I know.

 

Chris

[ldhair]

I would probably just smile and go on.

I would have to rethink how or if I did business with this dealer in the future.

 

As far as what I would like to do.

Maybe a short polite letter to inform the dealer I was a bit upset with how the deal went down.

 

I sometimes take counter offers I don't like, just to move it. It would upset me to have what you describe happen to me.

[truthteller]

Say you offer a pretty decent coin (about $4,000.00) to a large dealership. He received the coin and now makes a counter-offer about 20% less than sight seen quote placed over the phone just a few days earlier.

(You know the coin is 'all there', but he Dealer claims it may have to sit in his inventory for awhile and thus the new, lower offer).

Instead of having him ship the coin back you, possibly in haste, you agree to the new terms/price and it's a "done deal".

 

A few days later you happen upon the exact coin, freshly imagined, on the Dealer's website at a price about twice what was given to you. A week or so later you see a SOLD next to the image as the coin has been removed from the Dealer's inventory.

 

What would you do? What would you like to do?

 

Did you make money? Did you come to an agreement? You could have said "no" and he would have returned the coin. On to the next deal.

 

 

TRUTH

[IGWT]

I'm not so sure I'd assume that the coin sold for the price listed on the website. If the dealer listed the coin for $6,400 (calculating based on your numbers), I think it's likely that the sale price was below that point. For all I know, the dealer actually sold the coin at cost plus 10% after some intense negotiations. If your assumption is correct -- that is, the coin sold for the dealer's asking price -- I would try to remember that whether I like the deal or dislike the deal is determined at the time of my sale. I don't think that my anger would be justified unless the dealer intentionally misled me. For example, if I found out that the dealer had a buyer in the wings for $6,400 at the time we struck our deal, I would call him on his lie.

[midwest]

I would just let it go and let it be a learning expierence. As far as what I want to do just think of What happened to Jimmy Hoffa

[braddick]

Great answers all the way around. Thanks guys. I guess I would only add I'd like to have had the Dealer's opinion on the coin, "sitting in my inventory for awhile" before I shipped the coin. That attitude alone would have prevented me from sending the coin. I don't know why the Dealer needed the coin in hand before disclosing his opinion on the lack of ability to turn the coin over quickly. That translates into a lower offer. Is there money to be made by offering strong buying prices and then upon receipt of the coin coming up with a reason outside of issues with the coin itself to offer a lower buy price?

 

To me, "sight seen" simply means the coin is purchased with a return if the coin isn't up to snuff, NOT because the ability the sell it has changed (and, why would it?).

 

Other than that,

[Oldtrader3]

IMHO the deal is bogus. It was a sight-seen agreement and the dealer should have paid the agreed amount or shipped the coin back. Negogiating a lower price after the sight-seen contract is disingenuous. He is taking advantage of your position of trying to sell the coin and since he has possession, he is using the psychology of possession to lower your price. This puts you in the weaker position (on the defensive) and he is taking advantage of it. I would never deal again with a person that did that to me.

[SilverDollarMan]

I agree w/ OT, a deal is a deal. AND..............I think the dealer lied too!

[cpm9ball]

I agree that the dealer lied or, at the least, exaggerated the length of time the coin MIGHT BE IN HIS INVENTORY . In all probability, he already had a buyer lined up. Unfortunately, you agreed to the new terms.

 

If I were you, I would send this dealer a note stressing your displeasure with how the deal was handled. I would add that you never plan to do business with him again and will post all of the pertinent facts on the NGC Collectors' Society boards to warn others of his tactics. (NOTE: Just make sure that all of the information is 100% accurate to avoid being sued for libel.)

 

I doubt that this dealer will have any pangs of remorse, so you having no further recourse but to "chalk it up" as one of those unfortunate learning experiences and move on.

 

Chris

 

PS. If by some remote chance this dealer wants to make a "peace offering" to mend your differences, accept it and, then, WRITE HIM OFF YOUR LIST!

[Die Varieties]

I have had the same thing happen to me except -- I told the dealer to send the coin back. The dealer ended up changing his mind and gave me the original agreed sight-seen price. I agree with others in that I highly suspect the dealer had a potential buyer already lined up.

[braddick]

Quick question: Let's say the Dealer goes back to his original offer once you've rejected his 20% lower offer: are you obligated to complete the deal? If you've turned sour on the Dealer could you simply state you want the coin back even if the Dealer offers the original price agreed upon when the coin was mailed to him?

Or, if the Dealer agrees to the original price once he sees you're not going to budge, do you have to allow him to complete the deal and you've given up all rights to the coin?

[Die Varieties]

Quick question: Let's say the Dealer goes back to his original offer once you've rejected his 20% lower offer: are you obligated to complete the deal? If you've turned sour on the Dealer could you simply state you want the coin back even if the Dealer offers the original price agreed upon when the coin was mailed to him?

Or, if the Dealer agrees to the original price once he sees you're not going to budge, do you have to allow him to complete the deal and you've given up all rights to the coin?

 

Speaking for myself -- if the dealer goes back to the original agreed upon sight-seen price -- yes, I feel obligated to complete the deal. After all, I'm getting what I originally wanted for the coin. I'm not going to bring myself down to his level of unprofessional ethics by changing the original agreed upon transaction.

 

However -- once the deal is officially completed by both parties -- I would have serious thoughts of any future transactions with that particular dealer and leave it at that.

[IGWT]

Let's say the Dealer goes back to his original offer once you've rejected his 20% lower offer: are you obligated to complete the deal?

 

The original agreement was payment of $4,000 contingent upon inspection of the coin. The dealer can either (1) exercise the contingency and return the coin, or (2) waive the contingency and pay $4,000. An attempt to renegotiate the price, IMHO, constitutes a repudiation of the deal that allows you back out altogether. Similarly, if Dealer A offers a coin to Dealer B for $100, and Dealer B counteroffers with $75, the counteroffer constitutes a rejection of the original offer. Dealer A would no longer be bound to sell for $100 even if Dealer B relented and later offered that amount.

 

Attempts to renegotiate and counteroffers can be dangerous if the other person is looking for an out. Know what your bottom line is (when either buying or selling), negotiate toward that goal, and stop if and when you get there. Pushing further might leave you empty handed.

[Merc]

I would reject the counter offer and have the coin returned. The coin would need to be ugly or overgraded for the sight unseen offer to be higher than the sight seen offer. Here you are talking about a solid coin for the grade coin. If the coin is nice, it would be easy to sell to another dealer for a fair price.

[Die Varieties]

Let me clarify a little further. What I'm saying is for me I would complete the deal since the dealer went back to the original agreed sight-seen price and leave it at that.

 

But technically speaking -- you can back out of the deal since the dealer tried to negotiate a lower (20 percent) price that was NOT in the original agreed sight-seen transaction.

[midijab-migration]

Sorry to hear about that Braddick. Been down that road rather recently. Sent 2 coins in (top of pops, with pop 2), and another pedigreed coin for trade and cash , both I thought were astounding. When the dealer got it, said they were nice, but (ho-hum). Knocked me way down and said that was what the market would bear, inventory, blah-blah. To make a long story short, I agreed as I was in need of the money at the time. My mistake was to also let them know I needed the money also (kid's college tuition coming due, etc.)

 

Well, one of the top of pops didn't make it into inventory, the other 2 are listed at close to 50% markups! One of the descriptions even reads as this coin being close to the proverbial wonder coin that's perfect in nearly every regard. You can imagine my shock and dismay. Well, I've layed awake a few nights bothered by the whole experience. I'm resolved to not make that mistake again!

 

After having had time to digest the whole affair, am I angry? Well, in the grand scheme of things, no, not really. After the initial shock and disillusionment wore off, I realize the larger longer established firms have to make money to cover the overhead as well as feed the staff and attend shows all over the country. The bottom line is they are out to survive in this business. They are also under the impression that this being a "hot" market they ought to be getting rich at the same time! They are proned to get inventory as low as possible and sell as high as possible. My error was placing all the cards on the table and letting them know my situation, exposing the "soft underside" as it were.

 

In hindsite, never group a bunch of coins together. Never let the dealer know why you're wanting to sell except to say you have more interest in another series. Make it like it would be nice to trade or sell it, but not critical. Shop it around, if the coin is "all there" and more, some dealer will want it, you will get offers. Get a handle on the dealer to dealer FMV for items of this nature and start from there. If it is a "hot" market like they all claim it is, and there's a lack of nice, fresh, material as they keep mouthing off about, and they'll pay "extra" for nicer material, then they can come up with wholesale bid prices at minimum. Don't mail a coin to them, shop it around on the bourse floor instead. Do each coin by the each. Study the pricing sheets, auction records, etc. Business is business, if the dealer has what you want, low ball them too! All's fair, right?

[truthteller]

Sorry to hear about that Braddick. Been down that road rather recently. Sent 2 coins in (top of pops, with pop 2), and another pedigreed coin for trade and cash , both I thought were astounding. When the dealer got it, said they were nice, but (ho-hum). Knocked me way down and said that was what the market would bear, inventory, blah-blah. To make a long story short, I agreed as I was in need of the money at the time. My mistake was to also let them know I needed the money also (kid's college tuition coming due, etc.)

 

Well, one of the top of pops didn't make it into inventory, the other 2 are listed at close to 50% markups! One of the descriptions even reads as this coin being close to the proverbial wonder coin that's perfect in nearly every regard. You can imagine my shock and dismay. Well, I've layed awake a few nights bothered by the whole experience. I'm resolved to not make that mistake again!

 

After having had time to digest the whole affair, am I angry? Well, in the grand scheme of things, no, not really. After the initial shock and disillusionment wore off, I realize the larger longer established firms have to make money to cover the overhead as well as feed the staff and attend shows all over the country. The bottom line is they are out to survive in this business. They are also under the impression that this being a "hot" market they ought to be getting rich at the same time! They are proned to get inventory as low as possible and sell as high as possible. My error was placing all the cards on the table and letting them know my situation, exposing the "soft underside" as it were.

 

In hindsite, never group a bunch of coins together. Never let the dealer know why you're wanting to sell except to say you have more interest in another series. Make it like it would be nice to trade or sell it, but not critical. Shop it around, if the coin is "all there" and more, some dealer will want it, you will get offers. Get a handle on the dealer to dealer FMV for items of this nature and start from there. If it is a "hot" market like they all claim it is, and there's a lack of nice, fresh, material as they keep mouthing off about, and they'll pay "extra" for nicer material, then they can come up with wholesale bid prices at minimum. Don't mail a coin to them, shop it around on the bourse floor instead. Do each coin by the each. Study the pricing sheets, auction records, etc. Business is business, if the dealer has what you want, low ball them too! All's fair, right?

 

 

In general, most collectors make poor businessmen. In the coin business, song and dance is the key to buying and selling. The advantage coin dealers have is cash, now, immediate payment. The advantage collectors have is patience, ebay and a variety of terms. However, most collectors don't sell unless they NEED the money. Most coin dealers know this and use it to their advantage. Dealers will use a variety of strategies to lower the asking price. For me, it's pass or play, very little counteroffers. I avoid business with dealers who dicker and badmouth my inventory. And unless a dealer buys my lower quality material first, they will NEVER get to be offered the monster material.

 

 

TRUTH

[midijab-migration]

Excellent approach TRUTH. Sort of a built in rewards program. I gotta also keep that in mind. Thanks.

[Mozin]

IMHO the deal is bogus. It was a sight-seen agreement and the dealer should have paid the agreed amount or shipped the coin back. Negogiating a lower price after the sight-seen contract is disingenuous. He is taking advantage of your position of trying to sell the coin and since he has possession, he is using the psychology of possession to lower your price. This puts you in the weaker position (on the defensive) and he is taking advantage of it. I would never deal again with a person that did that to me.

Well stated and I agree with you.

[bigmoose-migration]

Pat, as the deal was already done when you accepted the 20% less counteroffer, I think what I would do would be to call the dealer and let him know in no uncertain terms how displeased I was with his conduct in this matter. Alternatively, if you stick around in the coin game long enough, I am sure that you will someday get the chance to hand this dealer's to him somewhere down the line. TomT.

[Connecticoin]

I am curious as to what the coin was. It seems quite remarkable that the dealer was able to flip it for double the money in such a short period of time.

[jom]

What would I do? There's nothing TO do.

 

What would I want to do? Kick myself for being an insufficiently_thoughtful_person.

 

The fact of the matter is the seller SHOULD HAVE KNOWN the value of the coin. He didn't and got burned. Tough toenails....

 

Oldtrade my be right in that in WAS a sight-seen transaction. However, the seller was NOT obligated to accept the counter-offer. Therefore the seller had TWO chances to back out...the original offer and the later counter-offer.

 

Sorry, I just don't have much sympathy when it comes to people who collect coins getting burned on prices. They should KNOW better. Now if you are some little old lady who doesn't know nothing about coins...that's another matter....maybe.

 

jom

[truthteller]

Ok, here's another scenario. I sell a dealer a coin, he haggles and badmouth's my coin. I sell him the coin anyway for less than I want. The coin sits in inventory for month's and month's. Then he sends it to PCGS, and it upgrades. Now, he puts a price tag of multiples of what he paid. The coin sits in inventory for months and months, through auctions, through ebay. He still can't sell the coin. Should I be upset? Noooooo. 1.5 years later, he still has the coin.

 

 

TRUTH

[jom]

Should I be upset? Noooooo. 1.5 years later, he still has the coin.

 

Again, tough toenails. He, being the dealer, should have known the value of the coin or whether it was a item that could be sold.

 

jom

[cpm9ball]

Should I be upset? Noooooo. 1.5 years later, he still has the coin.

 

Again, tough toenails. He, being the dealer, should have known the value of the coin or whether it was a item that could be sold.

 

jom

 

Jom, remind me never to buy a used car from you!

 

Chris

[ER]

Say you offer a pretty decent coin (about $4,000.00) to a large dealership. He received the coin and now makes a counter-offer about 20% less than sight seen quote placed over the phone just a few days earlier.

(You know the coin is 'all there', but he Dealer claims it may have to sit in his inventory for awhile and thus the new, lower offer).

Instead of having him ship the coin back you, possibly in haste, you agree to the new terms/price and it's a "done deal".

 

A few days later you happen upon the exact coin, freshly imagined, on the Dealer's website at a price about twice what was given to you. A week or so later you see a SOLD next to the image as the coin has been removed from the Dealer's inventory.

 

What would you do? What would you like to do?

 

Every transaction / coin is different. I'd just move on.