• When you click on links to various merchants on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network.

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Maybe blaming NCS for dipping coins is not the right thing to do?

33 posts in this topic

I was reading a thread when someone brought the topic up about NCS and how they are evil or something of that nature because they dip coins.

 

Now this I think maybe the wrong thing to do. NCs does a lot of good with coins and has saved many coins however some are not fond of dipping coins. The thing is that people will always do what they will to coins.If they think a brillo pad is a good idea that coin will get treated with it. There is a stigma about dipping is evil and if you do it to any coin you are basicly stamping your card to spend eternity with the devil.

 

Folks some coins need to be dipped. remember this little equation originality does not = beauty. Now that that is done some coins are unfortunately dipped that I think shouldn't.These are probably the coins that really cause this feeling. However in the end if someone is going to dip there coin they will and will probably damage it. Or they will have some shady dealer do it who probably has as much expierence as they do.

 

Many coins have been ruined by people trying to do stuff they have no knowledge about. IN the end it is probablky helpful to the hobby to have people who know what they are doing do this kind of stuff.

 

In the end the hobby still has the coin and it is not ruined.

 

Now I don't really like the idea of beautiful coins being dipped but the following was something that has popped into my head. It is better to have pros do it than amateurs.

 

Now what say you grin.gif

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is my perspective.

 

If you have coins that have been sitting at the bottom of the ocean for 150 years, they should be conserved. If you have coins that were burried in your backyard or the foundation of your house for 100 years, they should be conserved. If you have coins with ugly spots or other ugly surface impairments, they should be conserved.

 

The problem, I have is when you have a choice, gem, or superb original coin with attractive toning or original skin that gets sacraficed to the conservation gods for no other reason but to hopefully achieve a higher grade or designation. If you look at whats available in proof silver or mint state and proof gold today, the majority of the coins have been conserved or otherwise dipped and consequently over graded. Professionally done or not it is a blight to the hobby. If you don't believe me, my challenge is to pick up an auction catalogue from 10/15/20 years ago and note how many original pretty coins are present - compare that to some recent auction catalogues where there are pages upon pages of generic looking conserved and comercially graded coins. Its a sin - but the services and sell side sharpies are making too much money on the strip/dip/conserve and upgrade game. So I am afraid its here to stay. Unfortunately, young collectors like yourself will have a difficult time assembling collections of original quality and unique coins with individual personality (providing that may be your goal) - as most of those coins are gone forever - all in the name of greed.

 

PS - I almost puked looking at NGC's NCS ad in a recent coin world - where they were showing some before and after photos of conserved coins. There was a beautiful original looking 1829 dime that was stripped. Why would anyone who is "pro hobby" promote this as being "market acceptable"?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think there are probably occasions where dipping is appropriate, but I don't dip coins myself. Perhaps some of the confusion comes in what people believe NCS does. I know that I was somewhat skeptical of them, since I had the same image that many others had of them dipping all coins in giant vats of chemicals, running them through the spin cycle and then re-slabbing them. I have had one experience with NCS, and although I did not witness their conservation efforts, I don't think dipping had anything to do with it. I had a very nice 1927-D Peace dollar in MS-63 in another company's slab, and I wanted to cross it to NGC, but there was PVC contamination on the surfaces. I sent it to NCS, and they removed all the PVC, but the areas of light toning on the reverse remained undisturbed. When I sent the coin in, I expected it to be returned all dipped and bland, but it was returned to me in the exact same condition I sent it, sans PVC. That was a better date coin headed for the smelter without the work of NCS. The other aspect of their work that must be considered is their discipline in conserving coins. They won't just conserve any coin. There are some hopeless cases, but there are also cases where the coins have more integrity without conservation. They evaluate each coin on its merits to determine if conservation is the right course of action, and if not, the coin is returned to its owner. So it's very different than the unscrupulous person, polishing coins in order to hide their true condition (we've all been the victims of this treatment, whether directly or indirectly). I think that is the stigma that NCS is battling, even though what they do is a service to numismatics, rather than an effort at deception. Based on my experience, NCS has earned my trust, and I would hope that those critical of what they do would do so based on first-hand knowledge and experience rather than hearsay.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ok my Friends----This is a very tough issue. First, as I have said before, we cannot change what others have already done to their coins. We can only hope to bring the "educational" level of the average collector up a little. Most of us do not want to "harm" our coins. But somehow an awful lot of coins are being messed up. We all know why? We all know it is to make more money---by fooling people. Really that is pretty simple. And, sadly in this world of ours today, WE WILL NOT CHANGE THEIR MINDS BY JUST ASKING THEM NOT TO DO IT. The only way to stop them is to make it NOT PROFITABLE for them. And the only way to do that is through raising the EDUCATIONAL KNOWLEDGE LEVEL of the average collector. It is like the SAT scores. The kids with high scores get into good colleges---the kids with bad scores or no scores do not go to college. Pretty simple. But more to the point of this thread. NCS serves a purpose. I have sent one coin to them. It was being eaten away with dipping residue---each month it was getting worse. Naturally, I had been fooled into buying the coin by a dealer. IT DID LOOK ORIGINAL BUT WASN"T. After almost 3 years, I finally did what was right for the coin and sent it to NCS. Now it sits in its NCS slab---all pretty again---conserved I hope for a long time. So the coin needed help through no fault of its own---and I helped it. This is the good that NCS can do for us. We can only hope that, as jtryka mentions, that they look at each individual coin and pick only those coins that actually need to be conserved. The trouble, as CTcollector and I see it, is that we see far too many dipped coins making it into holders---WHERE THE ONLY REASON FOR THE DIPPING WAS SO THAT THE COIN COULD OR WOULD RECEIVE A HIGHER GRADE ON THE SLAB. So that the coin could become MORE MARKETABLE. And, if NCS or PCGS or NGC or ANYBODY ELSE helps this "Philosophy of Coin Collecting", then a whole bunch of us out there feel that they are doing our hobby a wrong that cannot be undone. And, unfortunately, at least this collector DOES SEE THIS BEING DONE IMHO---AT LEAST SOME OF THE TIME---BY AT LEAST A FEW. And, admittedly, it is just an opinion of one. As an example, I bought another coin of the exact grade, date and mintmark as my NCS "conserved" coin. It came from a TOP third party grader---already slabbed. I sat the two coins down side by side. Well, my gosh, I had twins. Naturally I already knew this would happen by now. By now, I knew "THE LOOK". It was the look that I had seen for years. I bought the coin only to verify an already certain thing in my mind. Needless I can sell the one coin for more than I can get for the other---ALTHOUGH BOTH ARE THE VERY SAME "CONSERVED" type of coin. I could crack my NCS slabbed coin out and send it elsewhere. But I doubt that I will become LIKE THEY ARE. This is the bad side of "conservation"----as Ctcollector points out above. So my fellow collectors. We all know that things are not perfect out there in the real world. All any of us can do is to try to keep ourselves "above the fray"----help to educate anyone who asks to be helped----speak out whenever possible against ANYTHING THAT WILL HURT A COIN. We can do these things for the hobby that we all love and want to be a part of. Bob [supertooth]

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have a scarce date, branch mint Barber quarter that is in a NGC-Richmond sale holder that needs conservation. The problem is carbon spots. The coin has very nice cherry and sky blue toning and I hope that NCS can preserve this coin without losing this toning. I don't care about a grading change, just removal of the carbon, stabilization and reslabbing at the same grade.

 

Attached is an image of the coin's reverse.

899191-10-DBarberQuart.jpg.476d38019f410817fba93b5570998283.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Bob and I are saying the same thing. Unfortuntaly, I tend to be agrressive and to the point, while Bob has a much more eloquent presentation than myself. What we are saying is conservation for conservation purposes is a good thing, conservation / dipping for profit is a bad thing. I firmly believe, and I respect people who disagree with me, that the later is much more pervasive than most people realize or want to accept. Do I have first hand experience with NGC/PCGS to base my opinion ? To be completely honest, I don't. I don't play the game. What I do have is common sense, experience, and knowledge.

 

When a high profile dealer publically returns thousands upon thousands of inserts from coins that have been cracked out over the years, I wonder about the fate of those coins. I take a look at that dealer's website and the type of coins they offer, and I can form a reasonable and confident opinion.

 

When I see countless auction catalogues with page after page after page of generic looking comercialized dipped and conserved coins in ultra high grades. I can form a reasonable and confident opinion. Were all these coins in legitimate need of a bath ?

 

When I study population figures and see the explosion of ultra and deep cameo graded proof coins combined with record submissions to the TPG's, I can form a reasonable and confident opinion. Did all these highly graded coins just recently show up fresh to the market ?

 

But those are opinions based on observations made with a critical and knowledgeable eye. When I experienced the following, I had no doubt about it.

 

Below is a certified proof 67 Cameo 1880 trade dollar from my collection. The coin possess strong contrast under pretty original toning. The only impairment is an old partial print on the reverse. Otherwise the surfaces are pristine. I once had a dealer at my house. This dealer was soliciting my business for a good few months and I really wasn't interested. One day he called and mentioned he would be in town and visiting another client that lived very close to me and wanted to know if he could stop by and see my collection to get a "better idea" of what I collected. I accepted.

 

When he came across the Trade Dollar, he noted that the only problem with the coin is the print and without it the coin could 68, additionally if the toning was removed, the coin with probably go deep or ultra cameo. He offered to do this for me, for a fee of course, and actually bragged about how he accomplished this a couple of times already. I can't say if he planned to accomplish this through his own work or the work of the grading services. Either way, I politely declined and permanently parted ways with the dealer at the next opportunity. But I was left with a lasting impression on just how far the envelope was being pushed to accomplish profits. Why would anyone who cared about coins want to remove 125 years of character in order to "enhance" this piece ?

 

 

1873Trade1OBV.jpg

]

1873Trade1REV.jpg

 

]

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hello there CT------Well, I see a lot of real "heart" and "heartfelt" comments are coming out in this thread. And, by the way CT, the only difference that I can see between us----is that 21 years that I am older. Age does have a way of mellowing a person. But, my friend, I think that you did "QUITE ELOQUENTLY" on this thread on the whole. I do hope a lot of others will read it and comment. And, you say that you are mailing this Trade Dollar with that video????? PLEASE!!!!! That coin, my friend, does indeed prove your point! At any rate, it is a shame that we cannot spread your "HEART" around to a lot of other folk. For it sure is evident to me that you do have "THE FEELINGS" of a "true collector". I often wonder where that has gone from soooo many of the others. Or maybe, as some have said, "they never ever had it". And, to my other friend---Oldtrader 3----Also a beautiful Barber. I do not know whether I would risk that coin to ANYONE for conservation. But, as I always say, you are the owner of the moment. You have the right to make the judgement call. I only hope it turns out to your satisfaction if you send it. Good luck with your decision. Bob [supertooth]

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Intresting comments in this thread. Anyway I hope it is know I am against dipping nice original coins. This thread is just something that popped into my head and I felt like playing devils advocate. devil.gif

 

Also that trade dollar is beautiful cool.gif It should be a federal crime to mess with it. takeit.gif

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Boy I was almost starting to think the conservation idea was OK--

 

CTCollector's one example shows how bad the conservation-upgrade-crackout game can be!! Here's the bottem line--by conserving 200 or so dogs, there will always be that one coin which is so magnificent and original (like the 1880 shown) that all off the benefit is outweighed because that one coin has lost it's history and beauty for a lousy POTENTIAL few bucks. And I might say Shame on NGC or PCGS for not grading this example correctly without the dip-job. They are part of the problem-- Don't worry CTCollector, at that level no one looks at the grade anyway when they bid, and that insufficiently_thoughtful_person dealer who visited your home would have cost you money even if it upgraded--he's just too stupid to realize it (or has a Registry buyer too stupid to know real quality!)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have a scarce date, branch mint Barber quarter that is in a NGC-Richmond sale holder that needs conservation. The problem is carbon spots. The coin has very nice cherry and sky blue toning and I hope that NCS can preserve this coin without losing this toning. I don't care about a grading change, just removal of the carbon, stabilization and reslabbing at the same grade.

 

Attached is an image of the coin's reverse.

 

 

I am an advocate of the quality of NCS's work, however, one should be selective of the coins which actually should be sent to NCS. I agree with many of the above statements that a coin's originality should be preserved if the eye-appeal is all there. Preserving or dipping a coin in the attempt for an upgrade alone is squirrelly to say the least. And, it is usually fairly easy to tell if the darker toning of a coin has eaten into the surface of the coin. If so, then one should seriously hesitate sending it in because those flaws will become much more apparent. I had a handful of proof and uncirculated type coins conserved last December and they did a magnificient job which have stood the test of time. However, I had a 1942 Type II silver war nickel graded PR67 by NGC that had the most gorgeous sky-blue toning over Monticello. I loved it! I sent it in with explicit instructions to only conserve the obverse but to leave the reverse alone! I annotated it three different times. And, to my dismay, when I got the coin back, the ______'s had conserved both sides and destroyed my beautiful, original coin which was mine. They blatantly went against my wishes and destroyed my property. I actually grieve for the loss of that coin. They gave me a lame excuse of saying that the gorgeous blue toning was actually residue and it would have harmed the coin. Well, NGC didn't think so when they graded it PR 67 before. Are they second guessing their parent company? There is still a learning curve going on with NCS. Since I had cracked the coin out, it came back a PR 65 which I was tempted to flush down the toilet. How dare them. "The customer is always right", period. Why would they go against such explicit instructions?! I say it again, how dare them. They compensated me the difference between the grades after my heated complaints and an apparent intervention of a friend but I say it again, how dare they! They ruined my day and they ruined my coin. It would have been a 100% positive experience with NCS otherwise. So, moral of story, Charlie, I have very little confidence in them abiding by your wishes. Perhaps if you verbally consult with someone first and get their assurances then you may be ok.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

CT Collector & Supertooth,

 

I was touched by both of your heartfelt comments and passionate pleas on this thread! I agree in so many ways. The coins themselves can not speak so they do need advocates. Concerning that gorgeous Trade Dollar, conservation would be a severe, boneheaded mistake. The whole idea of that dealer's attitude is motivated by greed alone and no passion for the coin or the hobby. The originality speakes for itself. Besides, a fingerprint that old would have already eaten into the surface of the coin and stripping its surface would just expose it even more. The idea of it upgrading to a 68 is ludicrous because of this reasoning. Frickin' Flakes. Thanks for reinforcing this passion into my heart and into my soul. Excellent comments. But, there is still a time and a place for everything. For instance, my Pr 66 Cameo 1880 Shield Nickel has an original skin and is flawless. [picture attached] I have no idea why it is but a 66. However, I feel that MY coin's eye-appeal would benefit greatly by NCS conserving it. They are masters of their craft and their work should never be compared with a dealer/collector dipping their coins in a bathroom sink at a convention. I had an original 1909 PR 65 Cameo Liberty nickel conserved with blah, uneven envelope toning. It came out near deep cameo (which is rare for the 1900 dates of this series). The surfaces are incredible. However, the downside, is that there is a small toning dot over the date which had eaten into the surface. Otherwise, it is near flawless! Why it was graded a 65 Cam after conservation is still a mystery to me. I've seen much worse in 66 or even 67 holders. Kind of reinforces the idea of looking for toning which has eaten into the surface. But, I have no regrets conserving any of these coins. 893blahblah.gif893blahblah.gif893blahblah.gif

900934-1880nickel.jpeg.83d1ba40f5859c2bef9fcb7596564d55.jpeg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Victor, you need to send that baby to me, I bet a good long dip could get rid of that milky toning in the fields. There's probably a Deep Cameo under there somewhere.

 

 

-Hayden = devil.gif

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I bet a good long dip could get rid of that milky toning in the fields. There's probably a Deep Cameo under there somewhere.

 

 

-Hayden = devil.gif

 

 

I agree. This is actually a coin that is a perfect candidate for conservation. I love it!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I bet a good long dip could get rid of that milky toning in the fields. There's probably a Deep Cameo under there somewhere.

 

 

-Hayden = devil.gif

 

 

I agree. This is actually a coin that is a perfect candidate for conservation. I love it!

 

Well,I've bought a number of books on coin cleaning and conservation recently and I've been working on a group of cruddy looking unc. 90% Rosies and Washingtons(and copper and nickel when I can find it) trying to get the hang of things. I still have a ways to go though. 893whatthe.gif

I dipped a cruddy unc. Morgan I bought as a BU and it came out a ANACS 65 PL,and even better it still looks nice even though it's been 4 months. Maybe I didn't dip it long enough 893scratchchin-thumb.gif

 

devil.gif27_laughing.gifdevil.gif

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I would never trust anyone but NCS to conserve any of my "good" coins.

 

 

Hayden, I'm eventually even going to send in the 1853 arrows & rays dime which I got from you. It is basically a problem-free coin but it could use a good "dippin'" 'cause of the spotting on the rt obverse.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I would never trust anyone but NCS to conserve any of my "good" coins.

 

 

Hayden, I'm eventually even going to send in the 1853 arrows & rays dime which I got from you. It is basically a problem-free coin but it could use a good "dippin'" 'cause of the spotting on the rt obverse.

 

Ouch,that hurt. blush.gif It's alright though I don't even trust myself when it comes to coin cleaning! 893whatthe.gif

 

I agree,but are you sure you don't want ot keep the colorful toning? insane.gif

 

BTW do you need an 1854 Arrows half or is it just the 1853 Arrows/Rays that you're looking for in AU-58?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Truthfully, Hayden, I really wasn't trying to slam you. I just stated my honest opinion.

 

I only have a week and a half left in this assignment so I've laid off some on my purchases although I'm been picking up a few So Called Dollars on e-bay. Mark Feld had a 1853 A/R half offered but, surprisingly, it was butt-ugly. He almost always has exceptional coins. It sure is a tough coin to come by in a nice AU grade. Same thing for a bust dime sm. planchet.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Truthfully, Hayden, I really wasn't trying to slam you. I just stated my honest opinion.

 

I only have a week and a half left in this assignment so I've laid off some on my purchases although I'm been picking up a few So Called Dollars on e-bay. Mark Feld had a 1853 A/R half offered but, surprisingly, it was butt-ugly. He almost always has exceptional coins. It sure is a tough coin to come by in a nice AU grade. Same thing for a bust dime sm. planchet.

 

Oh, I know that my reply was supposed to be humorous as well. But...will you be looking for an 1854 Arrows half in AU-58 in the future? grin.gif

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I only have a week and a half left in this assignment

 

So what state will have the horer I mean wonderful expierence of hosting you 893scratchchin-thumb.gif

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm shooting for Fairbanks, AK. I just turned down an assignment outside of Seattle yesterday. Been there, done that too many times already. WY would be a second choice. Forget MT, though, it has 9% state tax in my income tax bracket. What a racket!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm shooting for Fairbanks, AK. I just turned down an assignment outside of Seattle yesterday. Been there, done that too many times already. WY would be a second choice. Forget MT, though, it has 9% state tax in my income tax bracket. What a racket!

 

you should move here to Illinois much nicer plus it is flat here.

 

Plus I think I found a new banana for chris 893scratchchin-thumb.gif

 

 

ban-cha.gif Tban-cha.gif Rban-cha.gif Aban-cha.gif Vban-cha.gif Iban-cha.gif S ban-cha.gif

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I already did an assignment in Shelbyville and also lived in Great lakes and Zion while I was in the Navy. I'm running out of places to go. I may go to New Zealand before too long.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I already did an assignment in Shelbyville and also lived in Great lakes and Zion while I was in the Navy. I'm running out of places to go. I may go to New Zealand before too long.

 

How about Florida 893scratchchin-thumb.gif

 

Also how do you like the new banana? Just watch him for a while.

 

 

 

 

 

ban-cha.gif

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I Forget MT, though, it has 9% state tax in my income tax bracket. What a racket!

 

Well you should take this as a sign. You need to get your hardworking behind on a couch and become a government sponge 893naughty-thumb.gif

Link to comment
Share on other sites