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I have a raw Wisconsin High Leaf Quarter with a die break

Started by coolpple-migration,

90 posts in this topic

coolpple-migration

coolpple-migration

Posted
Posted

The die break runs from Rim to Rim and it HAS TO BE one of the last coins struck in this die set. I'm thinking a real expert on die strikes could look at this coin and

give a very accurate estimate of how many of these things were struck. I need advice on how best to exploit this coin for numismatic purposes. It could tell us a lot about how many there are of these.

 

The die crack begins in the rim above and down through "W" of Wisconsin and runs down in front of the cow's eye on down through the "F" in Forward on down to the first "u" in Pluribus and on off the rim.

 

What do you advise me to do with this coin.

 

Thanks,

 

coolpple@aol.com

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cladking

cladking

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Very interesting. It perhaps provides a clue why so few have turned up. Can you provide any details of where it came from?

 

If you can post some good photos it will give us an excellent idea of how many were made. The current estimates are in the 5,000 range.

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coolpple-migration

coolpple-migration

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Hi Cladking,

 

Thanks for your reply. I really would be happy to send a picture to anyone who wants to see it. I KNOW how to send an email attachment ... but I don't know

how to attach a picture in here. If I can't figure it out ... I can send it to any email

address though and I'd be happy to do that.

 

I'm thinking that an expert on die strikes could give a very reasonable estimate

on how many times this die was used before it cracked like this. I'm sure that

they could tell by the sharpness of the letters, and other fine details ... at least

I hope that would be the case. I came into a very large number of these things

in San Antonio, Texas while going through bank rolls. I had bunches of them

and still have bunches of them. And as a result, I am very interested in this

thing, as you might well imagine.

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Die Varieties

Die Varieties

Posted
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coolpple: You can send an image via e-mail attachment to: dievarieties@sc.rr.com if you desire. I'm not too sure of the current quarter working die but I would hazard a guess around 250,000 give or take on a full production run. If the die crack you describe is on a coin that, lets say is around a medium die state (MDS) then cut by half and so forth. I would need to see large scans to try and determine the die state. With that large of a die crack you describe, I can't see it continuing very much longer on its run.

 

BTW -- welcome to the boards.

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AlixTCat

AlixTCat

Posted
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If you can send an e-mail attachment, you can attach a picture on this board. Just click the box under the place you type, "I want to preview my post and/or attach a file" before clicking Submit. Then, in the next window, you just click the Browse button and browse to where you have the image file. Images can be no larger than 150K, so use an image editing program to pare down the file size. Simple as that.

 

Hope that helps. We'd all like to look at your coin.

 

Jonathan

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cladking

cladking

Posted
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Hi Cladking,

 

Thanks for your reply. I really would be happy to send a picture to anyone who wants to see it. I KNOW how to send an email attachment ... but I don't know

how to attach a picture in here. If I can't figure it out ... I can send it to any email

address though and I'd be happy to do that.

 

I'm thinking that an expert on die strikes could give a very reasonable estimate

on how many times this die was used before it cracked like this. I'm sure that

they could tell by the sharpness of the letters, and other fine details ... at least

I hope that would be the case. I came into a very large number of these things

in San Antonio, Texas while going through bank rolls. I had bunches of them

and still have bunches of them. And as a result, I am very interested in this

thing, as you might well imagine.

 

I'd love to see it too. Dies wear at different rates and it will even vary from the early die states to later dies states but one can get an opinion which should usually be pretty close.

 

There are apparently some major discrepancies in my experience.

 

I check cladking@sbcglobal.net on a daily basis.

 

Thanks.

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Die Varieties

Die Varieties

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I received a couple of large photos of the Wisconsin quarter from coolpple. I will trim it down and hopfully get it down in size and post up here for everybody to see.

 

Coolpple: I can tell in the photos you sent me about what die state it is. Let me post the pic up here for everybody to see and then we can go from there. That OK?

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Die Varieties

Die Varieties

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Here is coolpple's image reduced down and trimmed a little for uploading so everybody can take a look. I put arrows pointing out the long die crack as well as arrows pointing to the high leaf. It appears to me this is a late to very late die state (VLDS) with the die at the end of its production run. The lettering and fields exhibit extensive metal flow indicative of the later stages of a die life. Much longer and there could be a whopping cud happening on this die. There possibly might be some out there with a cud or in this case retained cud.

 

highleaf.jpg

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coolpple-migration

coolpple-migration

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Excellent Job Sir, Thanks for posting those pictures for me. And I certainly appreciate your analysis of the die state. Now all I need is for somebody else

to advise me on what to do with the coin I have. Grade it, keep it, sell it, expect to get more for it or less for it ... ??? ... I'm waiting to see if anyone else reports one of these also.

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IGWT

IGWT

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I concur with the LDS assessment. Rim-to-rim crack right across the poor cow's head. With all the recent hype on low leaf, high leaf, speared bison & Cheerios (and the prices fetched), maybe Coolpple can tag this die state the "Sliced Beef" and make a killing on eBay.

 

grin.gif

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Die Varieties

Die Varieties

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Coolpple: First, I am no expert in the field of quarters. I do understand die states/stages since they relate with the variety field. So -- with that said, here are my thoughts on the pics I see of your coin. It appears to me to be a die that is near or very near the end of a production run. I'm guessing -- emphasize the word guessing -- that an average die life for the quarter is around 250,000 give or take. Again, cladking and others could shed more light on that info. But, for the heck of it, lets say it is around 250k. Then there are 250k of this high leaf quarters out there. Since yours has what we call a "retained cud" where the die crack extends completely from rim to the rim without breaking off yet. That in of itself -- again this is JMO, could add extra value to the premium of the high leaf variety. If the die was to keep on going for much longer -- then it could totally break and then there would be a cud or whatever portion broke off would be the cud in various stages. That in of itself could bring even more substantial premiums for the coin. Of course -- we don't know yet, but there could be some out there to be found that do exhibit a cud.

 

As far as how much more in value? Honestly, I don't know. That always depends on collector needs and what the seller and buyer agree to. That applies with any coin for sale. Certainly this is most interesting to see this variety with that extensive die crack and this additional information will only add to the history/background of this high leaf type.

 

Anybody please chime in. Thanks for sharing your coin with us and great finds. Congratulations! thumbsup2.gif

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cladking

cladking

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Very interesting. Thanks for the effort and thanks to DieVarieties for posting the pictures.

 

I would defer to DieVarieties expertise on the subject but suspect this die did nort strike nearly as many as the typical die which had worn out. The number of dies used for the D WI's has not been released yet but due to the large numbers of high devices on this issue 250,000 for this reverse die may not be far off.

 

This particular die was opposite an obverse die which was aligned to strike at about the eight o'clock position on the reverse die first. This cause undue wear to this part of the die and excessive metal flow. It appears an inordinant amount of the die wear is in this area and shows up most dramatically under the "F" in FORWARD and along the rim at 8 o'clock.

 

It is this excess stress and damage which likely caused the break. Unfortunately I could find no good pictures of the high leaf quarters which have been reported previously for comparison. There's little doubt though that this is the same die at a much later state.

 

I'd guess it failed soon after this and this coin was around the 100,000th of the die. There is no certainty that the missing coins will ever show up and a large percentage of the WI D is already in circulation (close to 90%).

 

I'd still be most interested in learning where this coin came from. wink.gif

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IGWT

IGWT

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Since yours has what we call a "retained cud" where the die crack extends completely from rim to the rim without breaking off yet.

 

Hi Billy -- A quick question on terminology. I use the term "cud" to refer to a piece of a broken die that is held in place; and, when the coin is struck, the broken part of the die forms a part of the coin that is at an elevation that is higher or lower relative to the rest of the face. The key for me is the different elevations. I would call what I see on the quarter simply a rim-to-rim die crack, or, if it is wider than appears in the pictures, possibly a split die.

 

I might be splitting hairs instead of dies tongue.gif and I certainly don't claim to have it right. I just use different words; but, I wonder if there is a consensus on the way to describe what we see in Coolpple's quarter. I find that there is also some disagreement on the meaning of "die state" versus "die stage."

 

Thanks for taking the time to post the photos so we could talk about the Sliced Beef. grin.gif (I especially like your use of the arrows on the photos!)

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Die Varieties

Die Varieties

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Hi IGWT:

 

Excellent questions.

 

The following is my understanding of the terminology concerning cuds. If a die is split from rim to rim and the design element is not broken off -- then it is a "retained cud." This is also referred to by some as "split-die" error. A cud is a split that is rim-to-rim and the portion of that design element has now finally broken-off. What we have left is medal filling in the void with no design. Now -- with that said -- that is my understanding. I could be totally wrong and by all means correct me if this is not true. I don't want wrong information on this.

 

Die state and die stage are two totally different terms. Day and night difference between the two. Die state applies to a particular working die during a production run. VEDS, EDS, MDS, LDS, VLDS are the usual die states but there are what we call in-between die states as well -- such as early to mid die state (E-MDS) and so forth.

 

Die stage is a particular point within the same die state. I could have a die variety such as a RPM that exhibits a distinct die scratch on the coin. That die scratch would serve to identify that variety for attribution. Lets say that distinct die scratch is on a medium die state (MDS) coin. Now, going one step further, in a different stage of that same RPM variety that distinct die scratch is gone. But the coin is still more-or-less in the same medium die state (MDS). So we now have different die stages of that same RPM variety but both are in the same overall die state (MDS). Now with that said -- die stages can transverse with different die states with a particular die marker for identification. Basically, die stages usually refer to a certain die marker applicable for that variety.

 

I'm glad coolpple let us see his Wisconsin quarter high leaf with that neat die crack. That was great information to learn and this is what makes the hobby exciting in our researching coinage. Who knows -- maybe the cow can have a cud to chew on!!! Time will tell.

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IGWT

IGWT

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I use the terms "die stage" and "die state" the same way you do.

 

I use the the word "cud" to refer to a broken piece of the die whether its retained or not. The retained cud, as I use the words, results in the differing elevations that I mentioned in my last post, and a plain ol' cud (broken piece that is not retained) leaves the void that you describe. A "crack" becomes a "cud" when a piece of the die actually separates from the die whether retained or not. Alan Herbert actually does away with the term "cud," preferring "broken die."

 

I'm amused by arguments on "right" and "wrong" terminology; there won't be any "right" or "wrong" use of many words in this field until there is near universal agreement or an authoritative dictionary is produced to which we all defer. Even then, the traditionalists will cling to terms of art, e.g., cud, slider, gem, to which more than one meaning can attach. Don't get me wrong -- I like precise use of language for clear communication. But, in the absense of something like the Oxford English Dictionary for numismatics, the best we can do is strive for a better understanding by explaining ourselves as we have done in the past couple of posts.

 

I've taken this thread a little off topic -- sorry, Coolpple. flowerred.gif

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coolpple-migration

coolpple-migration

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IGWT, your insight has been EXTREMELY helpful to me, just as has the expertise of these other fine people. I deeply appreciate your experience and wisdom in this field. You can take the discussion anywhere you wanna ... I'm just sitting and staring on in amazement.

 

Much appreciation,

 

K.Brown

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coolpple-migration

coolpple-migration

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Hello Numismatics ... I would be glad to keep you informed on what kind of

treatment I get from the graders and the works. If you want to contact me my email address is given higher up in this thread. I don't know if I will dispose of the find in some way or if I'll keep it. I suppose it depends on how big of a deal it turns out to be. Thanks for reading and God Bless.

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Die Varieties

Die Varieties

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Coolpple: I was wondering -- do you have a progression of the die crack? Or is it that you came across one where the die crack is already fully extended rim-to-rim? I think it would make a great display if one were able to illustrate the different stages of the die crack. Thanks again for sharing your find with us.

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coolpple-migration

coolpple-migration

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Mr. Crawford,

 

Thanks for your interest in my coin ... VERY MUCH ... I immediately went in and

searched through my remaining high leaf coins ... VERY CAREFULLY with a 7 power lens ... and I found no progressions ... I was definitely hoping to find one ... but no such luck. I'll have to be satisfied with the AWESOME coin that I found for now ... although I must confess ... I am attempting to closely scrutinize all the

high leaf coins on ebay as well .... lol !!!

 

Thanks again,

 

K.Brown

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Die Varieties

Die Varieties

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"Will the graders at NGC see this coin as a Variety Coin or not."

 

As far as I know NGC has been slabbing the Wisconsin with high or low leaf on their tags. As far as the "rim-to-rim die crack" on your coin being also annotated on the tag -- that I don't know. Maybe one of the board members here or NGC can provide more info on that.

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EZ_E

EZ_E

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Billy,

 

Will the graders at NGC see this coin as a Variety Coin or not. What are your thoughts on that if you don't mind me asking?

 

 

I don't see why a die state should ever be designated as a variety. I still think that this is an incredibly interesting coin.

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