What if you think a grade is off?

[shanonmore]

Okay, so I'm sure everyone has been a bit miffed by a grade their coin received at one point or another however; I was content until I saw another coin on a past Heritage auction graded by the same grading company( I won't name names ) that received a higher score than mine and was in horrid condition. I'm surely not an expert but, this is obvious to anyone. It may have been graded under a different set of criteria however, it just makes me a bit I probably can't steal the pic, so I don't know how to post it, but it's a MS63 1893 Columbian World Expo Commemerative in Heritage's permanent auction archives.....if you see it, you can't miss which one. Mine is in my picture gallery still, I'm in the process of selling it since I have no desire to collect commemeratives but, the value is not so good and I unwrapped it from it's original wrapper!!

 

Okay, done venting......advice? What am I missing? Mine is shiny, and bright, and has less scratches etc. I am open to anything anyone has to say as long as they looked at both!

 

Sorry for the run on....just frustrated!

[shanonmore]

Okay, couldn't help myself...I cheated!! I put in the pic!

[RGT]

You have discovered the inconsistency of the TPG's. As an example of my own check out this post I made a few months ago. Both of these coins are mine and submitted about 3-4 months apart.

 

Two Seated Quarters

[shanonmore]

WOW!!! Okay, I see what you're saying! I guess I should just be okay with the fact I didn't get any coins sent back my first time around. That second coin was beautiful, I mean they both are but....the second one!!! I can't wait until I know enough to get into rarer coins, I think my brother in law swiped the older coins before my mother in law split up the collection we inherited. HAHAHA to him though! His "older" coins don't have dates and I ended up with mercury dimes (not that I like them much) Two complete sets of pennies starting at 1909 (except for the 1909-S VDB, ironically they dissappeared from both sets) and a complete set of buffalo's and extra's!

 

Okay, off topic again. I'm just aggravated. I'm so new to this but, I was so sure that was a nice coin......I was willing to accept the grade until I saw that horrid looking one. Now, I'm selling it for a pathetic amount so I can start building up higher rated, graded sets that will be of better value for my kids!

 

What's funny is, the penny I sent in I really thought was a DDO but I thought it was in about XF condition and it rated highest with a MS63 so hubby said I should just pick the worst ones and send them in instead....what do you think?

[gmarguli]

The Columbian you posted from Heritage is an awful looking coin. Dark toning that has no life to it and the surfaces seem dull. My guess is that the coin is a gem coin based on marks, but NGC knocked off a few points for ugliness. And keep in mind that Heritage is knows for their lousy images. That coin could look great in person.

 

I'm not sure what yours looks like (I don't know what picture gallery you are talking about). However, white coins show marks easier and therefore a white coin with the same amount of marks as a toned coin may grade lower.

 

Without seeing both coins in person, it is near impossible to tell which one is better. As to what to do, suck it up and move on. Otherwise it will drive you crazy.

 

BTW, what do you mean "unwrapped it from it's original wrapper"?

[shanonmore]

Dang it, I wrote a whole reply to RGT and forgot to login! This packing and trying to put these coins in order still is getting to me.

 

I meant my coin picture gallary Greg, sorry if I worded it wrong. The 1893 Columbian is very easy to spot since I only have eight graded coins. Also, it was in a sealed plastic wrap. Sort of like what you would see old fashioned hard candy in...that's the best analogy I can think of. I only opened it up when I put it into the flip to send it off...no, not true..I sent off a pic to another professional numismatist for his opinion on it and out of the first six I showed him (and the only six) he said that one definately looked uncirculated. He also was the one that taught me about the Buffalo horns or I would have wasted a ton of money trying to grade Buffalo's that were lacking two key horns!

 

Back to RGT....Hubby looked at your thread and then the scores and naively suggested that you take the coin out of the holder and send it in again. He's left me in charge of the coins, stamps (next endeaver..not as exciting looking), and antiques so he has no idea how much it costs to grade the coins, he just pays for it. They are both beautiful to me, but I'm a rookie. That second one is in amazing shape though and so obviously nicer than the first! How frustrating.

 

Well, I know I'm signed in now so I'm leaving with this post and going to bed or back to putting coins into decent holders...probably the latter! I will sleep eventually!

[shanonmore]

Gallery.....I can spell, really I can!

[coinman1794]

RGT, in response to something you said in your post:

 

I've always considered NGC to be fairly consistent, but I have no clue what's going on here. I have a few more coins I've been thinking of sending in but I'll be holding off on that. Maybe it's a fluke. Maybe one of the graders is giving up smoking.

 

When I picked it up from the dealer who sent it in for me he showed me some Walking Liberty Halves he had in the same invoice. He had expected mostly 64s and a few 65s. He got 65s and several 66s. I looked at the coins and feel they were more in line with 64-65. Maybe they gave him a gift after screwing up the grade on this quarter.

 

Anyone else seeing this kind of inconsistency lately? Any graders reading this forum want to clue us in? Was my coin graded by the janitor while everyone else was at FUN?

 

I have had these problems on a regular basis. I dont tolerate it either...what it means is simply that they are not spending enough time on grading the coins. The idea that grading services are "gods" and "flawless" is nonesense. They are people and they make mistakes, and lots of them! I have to send stuff back to be fixed REGULARLY - for upgrades, downgrades and more. Lately, they are into mislabelling stuff; my last three consecutive invoices have had at least one mislabeled coin on them. If they can't get the objective info correct, the grades are definitley in question, let me tell you! And you would be surprised how often I have been right about these...what I guess you could call "careless grades." In addition to grades, I have had entire invoices of designation review coins come back with NOTHING, only to have each and every piece receive the originally requested desination upon having the entire invoice sent back and reviewed for free. This is not an isolated occurance either. It happens to me way too often...how about others?

 

But...I promise you, NGC is the best there is, and as long as they are willing to fix these problems when they occure, i will continue to use them.

[shanonmore]

Wow, can you send them back if you think a designation was missed? Do you have to request a designation? I thought that it was part of the grading process to have the designations assigned.....However, I may have designation confused with something else.

 

I sent in a 50C Franklin and the bell had all the lines on it, I mean the strike was so nice that you could read the writing on the upper portion and everything. I would have never thought to waste money on grading this coin if it wasn't for the bell being so clear and the strike being so nice. However, it came back a MS 58 without the FBL designation. When I asked around I heard that the grading companys automatically assigned those sort of things to the coins.

 

If that isn't the case, should I send it back in to be rechecked? Because otherwise I just have a half-dollar in a pretty case.

[Hoot]

Strike designations are part of the regular grading process, but they are only assigned to Mint State coins, usually 62 and above. Your Franklin, if truly a 58, will not receive the designation, no matter how good the strike is. If you are dead-certain it's an MS coin, then you can try again.

 

BTW, NGC is very tough on strike designations.

 

Hoot

[shanonmore]

I cannot believe I rolled out of bed and came to the boards....AAH!! TOO CUTE!! I love your signature Hoot! The nickel you use and then your saying.....I personally have fallen in love with the Buffalo Nickel, the detailing is just so(okay, this is when I know I'm tired...loss of words) elegant. I read the history on them and how the artist went about doing the design and I was just so impressed. But okay, I'm running off topic again

 

I PERSONALLY think my Franklin should have scored higher but, that's like asking me how I feel about whether or not my daughter is the smartest in class or the cutest I suppose.....every one is a bit biased in judgement of their own. If anyone looks at my picture gallERY it wouldn't be hard to spot that piece either because once again, it's one of a kind out of the whole eight. On the bright side, it looks pretty in my slab holder.

 

Okay, I need lots of coffee with more coffee and then maybe more sleep!

[supertooth]

Hi There----And welcome to the "Giant Game". It would be extremely hard to explain the whole hobby and the third party grading services [TPGS] in just one reply. But I offer you these few pointers. One--grading is indeed subjective and sometimes one guy will like a "toned" coin and its originality while another guy might like a totally "white" coin-----beauty is in the eye of the beholder afterall. Second---When you are new at the grading game, it does appear to you that the graders make a lot of mistakes. You just do not agree with them some of the time. When you get a body bag back, you jump into the air and "RANT". But, after awhile, and after you start to get good yourself----You tend to see NGC or PCGS or ANACS point of view "in a different light". You will actually start to agree with them more often than not----AFTER ABOUT 5 YEARS OF Submitting coins to them and AFTER YOU HAVE LOOKED AT THOUSANDS OF OTHER COINS [both in and out of slabs]. Third--- You must remember that these fellows are "indeed experts". Sure, they do make mistakes. And I do imagine do go "too fast" on occasion. And each TPGS does compete with one another. But, on the whole, these guys have been at it for so long that they can just glance at a coin and get real close to that coins grade. If you have a toothache and go to the dentist and he takes an xray and says it is #14 and you either need a root canal or an extraction, do you sit and argue with him or do you believe him? Well, these grading guys have the numismatic knowledge just as the dentist knows teeth. And------MOST OF THE TIME THEY ARE CORRECT. Fourth----Most of the time the coin business involves "MONEY". And most of the time the consumer is on the low end of the totem pole as far as knowing how to grade----how to determine whether a coin has been cleaned or not----what is the "true value" of the piece. In one or two questions, a coin person [dealer or otherwise] can tell just about how much the individual knows about the coin business. And, once he knows this, guess who is then at a disadvantage?? And guess who will be on the low end of the "DEAL"?? Fifth----You take those two 1853 quarters. Just by looking at the technical grades----the first one is an XF and the second is an AU. Grading is now done----end of story----Right??----WRONG. The first quarter is "totally" original with good eye appeal. Never been messed with. I would have given it an XF45 just as NGC did. Beautiful coin!! The second coin"s color looks "funny" to me. I think and thought at the time that the coin had possibly been washed or wiped or dipped lightly at some point in its history. The "hairlines" confirmed this at least to me. The color was just "off a little". So, NGC instead of body bagging it----cause it is such a nice looking coin----just downgraded it a little. In other words, they set it at a grade where if someone paid "good" extra fine money, they would get a coin that was "acceptable" at that grade level. Now everyone swears that they do not do this-----establish actual prices----but, in reality, they do it "ALL THE TIME" and just do not tell you. Why?-----Because these guys are trying to put the coin where it belongs without necessarily getting into an argument over it. Now, in my humble opinion, this is what I have learned over years of effort. It is just my opinion. It is the "truth" as I know it. Could I be wrong a little? Sure. But I bet that I am pretty close. It is just like Hoot saying that he does not want to grade. Heck----he is one of the best on these boards. So, listen to his comments and believe them. Bob [supertooth].

[coinman1794]

If you are intimately familiar with their standards, its easy to spot mistakes. They do make them, it's the secret of coin grading services. And, when they totally mess up an entire order, that is unacceptable, and the coins really must be re-examined. They catch the mistakes on a second time around, which means the problem is that they are not spending enough time on our coins.

 

I forgot to mention before, I have even had coins come back that were never sonically sealed! Just sandwiched together and shipped.

[midwest]

I forgot to mention before, I have even had coins come back that were never sonically sealed! Just sandwiched together and shipped.

 

Was there any particualr service that has done this?

[Oldtrader3]

Hi Shannon: Cute kids! The grading services are routinely off a grade (plus or minus), sometimes more. As Greg also mentioned, Heritage is famous for their poor coin images. You have no idea how good or bad the coin really looks from their pictures. You can crack the coins out and send them back for another grading if you strongly disagree. This is routinely done by many dealers.

[coinman1794]

I have been talking about NGC exclusively so far. With the unsealed holders, there were two coins on a small invoice of about 10 that were not sealed.

[gmarguli]

Strike designations are part of the regular grading process, but they are only assigned to Mint State coins, usually 62 and above. Your Franklin, if truly a 58, will not receive the designation, no matter how good the strike is.

 

Actually, NGC will assign designations to coins that are circulated. I don't believe there is a minimum grade to receive any of their designations except the Star Designation which they (worngly) require a minimum grade of MS63.

[Hoot]

Strike designations are part of the regular grading process, but they are only assigned to Mint State coins, usually 62 and above. Your Franklin, if truly a 58, will not receive the designation, no matter how good the strike is.

 

Actually, NGC will assign designations to coins that are circulated. I don't believe there is a minimum grade to receive any of their designations except the Star Designation which they (worngly) require a minimum grade of MS63.

 

Interesting. I seem to recall that there was a discussion on this once and that the services do not look for strike attributes when a coin is determined to be circulated. I've also never once seen it, myself. Had a 1945-D Jefferson nickel one time with 6 full steps that was AU58 and it did not receive the FS designation. You couldn't have missed the steps for the life of you. In fact, that may have been the coin that started the thread...

 

Hoot

[shanonmore]

Strike designations are part of the regular grading process, but they are only assigned to Mint State coins, usually 62 and above. Your Franklin, if truly a 58, will not receive the designation, no matter how good the strike is.

 

Actually, NGC will assign designations to coins that are circulated. I don't believe there is a minimum grade to receive any of their designations except the Star Designation which they (worngly) require a minimum grade of MS63.

 

Interesting. I seem to recall that there was a discussion on this once and that the services do not look for strike attributes when a coin is determined to be circulated. I've also never once seen it, myself. Had a 1945-D Jefferson nickel one time with 6 full steps that was AU58 and it did not receive the FS designation. You couldn't have missed the steps for the life of you. In fact, that may have been the coin that started the thread...

 

Hoot

 

Oh that had to upset you! How aggravating, that close to an MS and they didn't give you the FS designation!! I would be so aggravated! I don't feel all that upset anymore, after all mine was just a Franklin half dollar, my kids will surely enjoy the value when I'm gone

[IGWT]

Okay, my first post and and I'm not one for the whole chatting thing.

 

Shanonmore: 3 days and 40 posts ago

[shanonmore]

Okay, I see your point....I moved up to hobbyist rather quick. Too much good info in here.