The experience that set my numismatic direction

[CTcollector]

I was thinking about this the other day while reviewing my collection and I thought it would be a good idea to share with the board and to see if others have had their own unique "numismatic direction setting experience".

 

Several ANA's ago I purchased 2 coins from Rare Coins of New Hampshire. This was the first purchase I made from the firm. In addition to the purchase, I spent about 20 minutes chatting coins with Paul Battaglia and Warren Mills. Warren is owner and founder of RCNH and Paul is one of his trusted and knowledgeable assistants. I left with with 2 great coins, some numismatic knowledge and a good feeling about these guys. Needless to say, over the next few months I made some additional purchases and RCNH made it on to my "A" list.

 

About 6 months after I first met them, Paul and Warren offered to come to my house and spend a day evaluating my collection. This was not a big trip for them as I live in Connecticut and I was curious to see what a respected professional thought of my collection, so I gladly accepted.

 

Prior to meeting Paul and Warren, I would collect two types of coins "blast white" or "colorfully toned". I had around 300 coins in my collection ranging from better date Bust to common date mercs/walkers. I had the coins proudly displayed on my dining room table. After lunch, Warren and Paul whipped out their halogen lamps and got to work reviewing my collection. (the next day I went out and bought my first halogen) They must have spent about 30 seconds a coin giving me verbal feedback and summarizing on paper how each coin fared. When I had questions or didn't understand what they were saying they would kindly show me exactly what they meant. The written notes helped as I was able to refer back to them later at my own pace and confirm what was said. I would say I graded out about 20% of what I consider today to be numismatically acceptable to own in my collection. The "Blast White" coins were obviously all dipped. Some had dip residue creeping back in on them, which was pointed out to me. Regarding the colorfully toned coins, half of them were AT and the other half NT. Of the NT coins, approximately half were technically sound for the grade. So I was obviously a little deflated, but now had irreplaceable knowledge and a desire to build a collection the "right" way. To make sure Paul and Warren were on the up and up, I got second opinions on some coins I wasn't sure on. Their assessment was confirmed. So after I was comfortable with the review of my collection and settled with the fact that I was indeed holding some "problems" or coins that weren't numismatically exciting (dipped or overgraded), I sold off about 3/4's of the collection that I was no longer "proud" to own. Fortunately, this was at the beginning of the Bull Run, so I did not get financially hurt. Over time, I patiently re-invested that capital into original coins that were technically sound for the grade. In a few hours Paul and Warren taught me about the difference between NT and AT, the importance of technical merits in a coin, coffin coins, grading service nuances, the pitfalls of dipping, and most impotantly the slow extinction of originality in the current market place. Something tapped into me that day and I have never looked back. Today, when I review my collection I am now extremely proud and confident of what I own.

[TomB]

That's a terrific story and everyone on the boards should read it and think hard about it!

 

I've gone up to NH to see Warren, Paul, Charlie (no longer there) and Jon (Tonelover on the PCGS boards) on several ocassions and it is always a treat. There is tremendous knowledge there and it is seriously worth making the effort to tap into it. They also are good people.

[supertooth]

Hey CT-----Yes, I can relate to your story. You were most fortunate to find some friends before it was too late. For me, it wasn"t the "white" coins---For they always looked too good to be true---that glassy look. My trouble was with "cleaned" coins and "hairlines". Being self taught, I had no idea about cleaning coins. Why would I want to do that? It hurts them. So---not ever experiencing the act of cleaning coins and then seeing what they looked like afterwards, I was totally amazed to discover that people---including some dealers---actually made a living at fooling the innocent collector. And, even worse, had no moral worries about doing it. Even going so far as to say that it was our fault for being duped because we were not knowledgable enough. But, like you, I was lucky. I started to finish a "fine" set of Walkers from my youth. I was an excellent grader---so that was never a problem. I had the books already and I had read them several times. So, after being somewhat overmatched for awhile, I was able to dispose of my mistakes and refine my collection in an appropriate manner. I even bought stuff that was bad [and I knew it] just to take a look at it and learn from it. But it is a never ending adventure. Just when you think you got it down pat----somebody comes along with another revelation. Just for example---the grading wars between NGC and PCGS. It is a cutthroat business for sure and, like others, I just made up my mind that, if I was going to play this "GIANT GAME", I had to become just as good as those who would steal my money from me. Knowledge is the "KEY". And, if you are not sure, stay the heck away from it for surely, if it is not what you know and understand, you will loose your shirt.These boards have also helped me a lot. Guys are smart here and, if you pay attention and ask correctly, you can learn a tremendous amount. Sending coins to NGC was also an adventure. They will not tell you "why" a coin is bad. The words "improperly cleaned" reveal nothing nor do they offer any insight as to what is really wrong with the coin. Or where on the coin there might be a problem. So---you must learn by trial and error. Pick up a tidbit here and there. All of a sudden, it seems to come together and, indeed, you do have most of it figured out. But it takes years if you are on your own like I have been. I envy you CT that you have had such helpers. You are most fortunate. But think where you would have been without them---maybe 600 bad coins instead of three hundred?? A bunch more AT coins that you thought were OK but weren"t. More dealers fooling you and selling you continued more junk. So---buyer beware---get those books---read them---look at thousands of coins----before you buy. Knowledgable people treat you better when they know that you know too. Bob [supertooth]

[HaydenTubbs]

Hey CT-----Yes, I can relate to your story. You were most fortunate to find some friends before it was too late. For me, it wasn"t the "white" coins---For they always looked too good to be true---that glassy look. My trouble was with "cleaned" coins and "hairlines". Being self taught, I had no idea about cleaning coins. Why would I want to do that? It hurts them. So---not ever experiencing the act of cleaning coins and then seeing what they looked like afterwards, I was totally amazed to discover that people---including some dealers---actually made a living at fooling the innocent collector. And, even worse, had no moral worries about doing it. Even going so far as to say that it was our fault for being duped because we were not knowledgable enough. But, like you, I was lucky. I started to finish a "fine" set of Walkers from my youth. I was an excellent grader---so that was never a problem. I had the books already and I had read them several times. So, after being somewhat overmatched for awhile, I was able to dispose of my mistakes and refine my collection in an appropriate manner. I even bought stuff that was bad [and I knew it] just to take a look at it and learn from it. But it is a never ending adventure. Just when you think you got it down pat----somebody comes along with another revelation. Just for example---the grading wars between NGC and PCGS. It is a cutthroat business for sure and, like others, I just made up my mind that, if I was going to play this "GIANT GAME", I had to become just as good as those who would steal my money from me. Knowledge is the "KEY". And, if you are not sure, stay the heck away from it for surely, if it is not what you know and understand, you will loose your shirt.These boards have also helped me a lot. Guys are smart here and, if you pay attention and ask correctly, you can learn a tremendous amount. Sending coins to NGC was also an adventure. They will not tell you "why" a coin is bad. The words "improperly cleaned" reveal nothing nor do they offer any insight as to what is really wrong with the coin. Or where on the coin there might be a problem. So---you must learn by trial and error. Pick up a tidbit here and there. All of a sudden, it seems to come together and, indeed, you do have most of it figured out. But it takes years if you are on your own like I have been. I envy you CT that you have had such helpers. You are most fortunate. But think where you would have been without them---maybe 600 bad coins instead of three hundred?? A bunch more AT coins that you thought were OK but weren"t. More dealers fooling you and selling you continued more junk. So---buyer beware---get those books---read them---look at thousands of coins----before you buy. Knowledgable people treat you better when they know that you know too. Bob [supertooth]

 

I guess you can stick around Bob and you too CTcollector,I'm glad everything worked out for you.I can relate to my own experinces with RCNH,definately a top notch duo who I highly recomend.

[libertycoins-migration]

I am assuming most of your collection was raw at the time, is this correct? Did they find a good deal of your problem coins in TPG holders?Congrats on a great experience.

[Die Varieties]

Excellent stories CTcollector and supertooth. Thanks for sharing your experiences and all the best in your collecting endeavors. I'm learning everyday.

[cladking]

I've been lucky in many ways. Perhaps the most important was that I had to pick over my older brother's rejects when I first started collecting. He collected Lincolns so I just started collecting buffalos. It had another great advantage in that my father allowed us to have coins for our collections for nothing.

 

All my friends collected cents and I watched as they built their collections from trading and buying from magazine ads. Then when we hit our teens all those collections were sold at steep losses while my out of the mainstream set turned a little profit. When I got back into collecting in my twenties I remembered this lesson and always avoided whatever was hot. I even had a little success with getting into the big areas early like with Morgan dollars in 1977.

 

Over the years my interests have branched out a lot but I'll still usually lose interest in something that's hot and trade it off for something that's different.

[CTcollector]

I am assuming most of your collection was raw at the time, is this correct? Did they find a good deal of your problem coins in TPG holders?Congrats on a great experience.

 

Believe it or not Nick, all of the coins were certified PCGS/NGC. Some of the more severe problems were a few silver dollars that were "puttied" and some gold coins that were "smoked" to conceal issues on the coin. Additionally, I had a whole slew of coins that were "heat accelerated" AT. Regarding the dipped coins, a good number of them were starting to show some ugly dip residue (not present when I purchased the coin ) or some other re-manifestation of a prior stain/spot, etc....

[Merc]

Coffin coins? I have never heard that term. Is that the same as a bodybagged coin?

 

Then I have heard about being burried in a coin -when the price falls so much you will never be able to break even on it. Is that a coffin coin?

 

After reading your first post, I assumed your coins were all raw. Then you wrote all coins were PCGS and NGC graded. I have a hard time believing you had several AT coins in these holders. Yes, an AT coin can get by and get graded but it is not that common. The you said you had several smoked gold coins. This is an old trick to hide problems. The graders at NGC and PCGS know this one. How on earth did you get so many problem coins in PCGS and NGC holders? I am wondering if these coins were fine and you were told wrong. If they were problem coins, you could sent them all back to PCGS and NGC for the grade review.

[CTcollector]

Coffin coins? I have never heard that term. Is that the same as a bodybagged coin?

 

Then I have heard about being burried in a coin -when the price falls so much you will never be able to break even on it. Is that a coffin coin?

 

After reading your first post, I assumed your coins were all raw. Then you wrote all coins were PCGS and NGC graded. I have a hard time believing you had several AT coins in these holders. Yes, an AT coin can get by and get graded but it is not that common. The you said you had several smoked gold coins. This is an old trick to hide problems. The graders at NGC and PCGS know this one. How on earth did you get so many problem coins in PCGS and NGC holders? I am wondering if these coins were fine and you were told wrong. If they were problem coins, you could sent them all back to PCGS and NGC for the grade review.

 

Hey Merc - I debated throwing in details as I did not want this post to get off topic. None the less, I'll respond;

 

The severly screwed with coins (puttied/smoked) were presented back to the TPG's and I was fairly compensated for most of these. Although professional graders are aware of these type of things, when individuals are grading hundreds upon hundreds of coins per day under time pressure, some of these will and do slip through.

 

AT vs NT will always be an on-going debate and is really a matter of opinion versus fact and thus I had no recourse with the grading companies. Regarding the AT coins, a good deal of these came in through one dealer. It was recommended that I sell these back to the same dealer. I called the dealer and informed them I was looking to sell some coins back to them. When asked why, I was pretty honest. So, the coins went back and I got a call from the dealer a week or so later and was told that "even if the coins were AT, it was a really good job and thus market acceptable". The dealer (grudgingly) purchased the coins back and that was the end of our relationship.

 

Based on the recourse I recieved from the TPG's and the other dealers comments, I was fairly confident, Warren and Paul were on the up and up with me. My maturation since then has only solidified that.

 

My advice to everyone is do not fall into a false sense of security because a coin has a piece of plastic around. Always be critical and keep an open mind to constructive advice and feedback from others that are honest and have more experience and insight than yourself.

 

PS - A Coffin Coin is a coin that is obviously over graded (ie an MS-64 sitting in an MS 66 holder). No one would ever think about cracking this coin out as it will more than likely lose a good chunk of its value if re-graded. Therefore, it forever stays in its holder (coffin).

[Merc]

Thanks for the info CTcollector. The Coffin coin is a new term for me. It makes since though. No dealer would crack out an overgraded coin and sell it for its true grade. That is why the prices are so low in the bluesheet.

 

I did get to see some coins that would qualify as coffin coins. A member of my coin club brought me 2 morgans for me to grade. Both were in PCGS holders. He covered the grades. I graded them both MS64 since they both had numerous, but light marks across Liberty's cheek. Well, both were in 66 holders! These were CC morgans too. I pulled out some of my MS65 CC morgans and they blew these MS66's away.

 

To bring your post back on topic. I met Jon of RCNH and bought a MS65FH 1929-S quarter from him. He is the youngest member of RCNH. He showed me what to look for in a true full head Standing Liberty Quarter should look like. From there, I was able to reject other quarters in FH holders beacuse they were not true full heads.

[libertycoins-migration]

What exactly is smoking a coin and how does it change teh coin? does RCNH have a website, they sound like nice guys?

[CTcollector]

does RCNH have a website, they sound like nice guys?

 

Rare Coins of New Hampshire web site:

 

http://www.rare-coins.com/

[EZ_E]

CTcollector,

 

This is one of the most informative posts that I have read on these boards in a long while. I, too, have learned most of your lessons the hard way. Now, it is tough to put one over on me. I, too, am a type collector and strive for high quality, cameo proof coins, although I will occasionally settle for AU 58 on some. Some of my collection is very high quality, hard to be equaled types such as my two cent and three cent nickel pieces and other very high quality proofs. However, there was a learning curve. When I got back into collecting in 2002, I had to learn the basics all over again (I had collected seriously as a kid for 5 years). I didn't even know what a Third Party Grading Service was. I had a lot of coin dealing shiesters feed me all sorts of bull such as all TPGS's are created equal. So, I had bought a great dated 1861 Seated Liberty Dollar graded AU 53 in a NTC holder. Lo and behold, it was a bleached coin with severe rim disturbances that was hidden somewhat by the holder. And I got beaucoup slider/cleaned Walkers from Coast to Coast Coins. I also got caught up in the bullion craze. Very poor investment there, especially when ready to sell. Many dealers will offer less than melt for proof gold and platinum issues. But by reading the numismatic publications, taking the ANA grading seminar, talking with michael for many, many hours on the phone, reading these posts and just by taking my bruises, I am a much, much more knowledgeably numismatist with an eye for quality. Sometimes I will keep a cheaper coin that really does fall below my standards for the time being as long as it is not a problem coin. I will eventually upgrade these pieces but it is still part of the learning curve.

 

I have made a couple of purchases from RCNH myself and they were acceptable coins, albeit not outstanding. I had one of their coins conserved by NCS, who has done a magnificient job on a few of my coins. Eye-appeal is king to me, whether toned or blast white. Just because a coin has some color on it does not mean that it is a monster coin. However, some of my toned coins are just incredible!! And some of my blast white coins are equally as sweet. I will conserve some coins through NCS if I feel that the toning has not eaten into the surface of the coin and if it will improve its eye-appeal. Perhaps this is a gamble sometimes, as well. However, I agree totally with CT that the quantity of original coins are rapidly disappearing, never to return again. That is why I would never, ever considering conserving some of my collection. No way, Jose! However, I do have an 1880 Proof 66 Cameo Shield nickel that is totally original but has a slightly milky haze on it. That bad-boy is being sent in pretty soon to NCS because I feel that its appearance will be helped tremendously even though it will destroy its originality. Oh well! I feel that its eye-appeal will be improved drastically since it is completely problem free with no corrosive toning. But a lot of these decisions come via experience.

 

This post is deserving to be placed on the top of the list here on this forum since it provides excellent, excellent advice for the new and old collector alike. The majority of numismatists/collectors feel a comradery (sp?) with other collectors and sincerely desire to see the other succeed! This is very unique in the world who's philosophy is usually to look out for number one.

 

Thanks for initiating this thread and for all of the wonderful responses!

 

[libertycoins-migration]

This thread is fantastic. I am only 19, and seriously got into collecting abot 2-3 years ago. I admit that I am a newb in many topics, but one topic that I am perplexed about lies within detecting dipped coins. I agree with Victor, eye appeal is what matters most to me. I am a very picky collector. So how does one tell the difference between a blast white coin and a dipped out coin? Great thread!

[CTcollector]

Nick - A significantly high percentage of older coins that are "blast white" have been dipped. There are original white coins (usually morgans and peace $) - but they will have subtle "original skin" (kind of off white/creamy in appearance) versus that in your face "blast" appearance as though the coin was minted yesterday. A "dipped out" coin is a coin that has been repeatedly dipped to a point where all the luster and attractiveness is stripped from the coin. These coins are dull and have no life left in them. A properly dipped coin (blast or just white) will retain some luster and life.

 

I know you mentioned in a previous thread that you went to the NYC show and looked at auction lots. I assumed you went throught these lots alone. Next time you go to a big show, see if you can hook up with someone from the boards or elsewhere (I'd be happy to do this with you) and tag along when they go through the lots. In other words, pull up a seat next to them, go through your lots as they go through theirs and ask questions related to actual coins. I say this because you can get alot of advice over the boards to help you along, but there is nothing like having an actual coin in hand to learn from.

[Merc]

Dipped coins are not necessarily a bad thing. Sometimes a coin develops a thin haze or light streaky toning. A quick dip in a weak ammonia solution with a proper rinse will improve the appearance of the coin. It must be done properly to avoid overdipping (removing the coin’s luster), scratching and hairlining the coin, and leaving fingerprints. The rinse is equally important to avoid leaving water spots and rinse residue.

 

Dipping a coin may worsen the coin. Deeply toned coins never dip well. The toning is part of the surface and the original surface must be removed to remove the toning. The coin is left looking dull and grey. Plus, many collectors want original looking coins even if the toning is not perfect. Toning may also hide problems which are revealed after a dip.

 

So how does one tell the difference between a blast white coin and a dipped out coin?

 

If the dip is done correctly, there should not be too much difference from the dipped coin and a naturally untoned one. This is more true for uncirculated Morgan dollars that were stored in rolls and bags. Coins in the center were protected by the surrounding coins from the air and did not tone. Many of the GSA Carson City Morgans came out of the mint bags blast white when they were sold by the mint in the 1970's.

 

Overdipped coins will have an unnatural bright reflection. The luster flow lines have been removed from the dipping. When rotating the coin, the cartwheel luster effect will be greatly lessened or will be absent. There will also be little to no luster contrast between the fields and devices.

 

Other coins just look wrong dipped. No circulated silver coins should be bright white. These coins have all been exposed to air and have toned. If they are white, they have been dipped. Older uncirculated coins should have some toning. Most pre-Morgan coins were not saved in great quantities in uncirculated condition. Early dollars and Seated dollars just look wrong blast white. These coins were exposed to the air for decades and should have toned. If they are blast white, they have been dipped. Only the 1859-O and 1860-O dollars were saved by the bag by the mint and can be found in MS60-62 blast white.

[cpm9ball]

Sometimes a coin develops a thin haze or light streaky toning. A quick dip in a weak ammonia solution with a proper rinse will improve the appearance of the coin.

 

Merc , from time to time I've noticed a haze develop on some of the proof coins in their original holders. Can dipping improve their appearance? Are there any special precautions that should be observed when administering to proof coins?

 

Chris

[EZ_E]

Merc,

 

Very well stated and intelligently put!

[Merc]

Dipping can improve proof coins, but it depends on the type of coin. Copper, never ever dips well. It reacts very differently and turns a pink color. Copper-nickel clad coins also look funny after a dip. I see that NCS cleans these coins. I am not sure how they are cleaning copper coins.

 

Proof coins also have a delicate mirror finish in the fields which is easy to hairline. Be careful with these. Dipping a coin correctly is not as easy as it seems. If done wrong, it will develop haze and spots again. Also the toning can etch into the surface of a coin. It can be removed, but the etched surface remains.

[cpm9ball]

Thanks, Merc! I don't intend to experiment on my own, but I was curious.

 

Chris

[fish-migration]

This is a bit off topic to the original post, but since the discussion has gravitated toward dipping coins...

 

(disclaimer - I consider myself a bit of a newbie - I don't trust myself to accurately grade coins yet so only buy NGC/PCGS when the price gets significant. (Actually almost always NGC because I still don't understand the PGCS 'premium' for what I judge to be the same coin). I prefer blast white specimens. Since I know that older coins don't often come this way, this means I've focused on moderns (especially modern commems), until I know more.)

 

With that long disclaimer out of the way, I just wanted to say that when I became curious about cleaning and dipping, and the results, I decided that doing is the best way to learn. So i bought a couple of rolls of cull/no date buffalo nickels and beat-up silver roosies (very cheap on ebay), and started trying out the techniques I found on the web.

 

What did I find? Well, many of the coins looked cleaner, but to the naked eye, or under a 10X magnifier, I could readily see surface damage. Almost all of the time, my cleaning/dipping attempts made the coins look horrible. Especially the Buffalos.

 

So what did I learn? (I realize that the old-timers are laughing now) I learned that I don't know how to clean/dip coins. I learned that beginners in the hobby are best served by research, listening to the experts, and then more research. I was out maybe a total of $30-50 for the experiments, but it was also a lot of fun.

 

So, I'm still sticking by my resolution to by graded coins when there's any doubt. When I graduate to 'classic' commems (after I get the other 37 percent of the moderns - my sets are listed)), I plan to do a lot more studying first.

 

Regards,

fish

[AmericanCopper-migration]

Well, believe it or not, it was a crummy image on a coin auction web site; Numismatic Online Auctions, (now defunct) that set my numismatic direction. I was filling a low-grade Dansco Indian Head Cent album and only needed a couple of the tough date '70's and the 3 keys to finish it. I was a Lincoln cent collector at the time, fulfilling a childhood ambition to own a complete set in uncirculated condition and had just finished it up. I knew little about the Indianhead cent at the time and knew it would be prohibitively too expensive for me to duplicate the uncirculated conditions my Lincoln set were in, so more as a learning tool, I was assembling just a mediocre set. There was a 1908-S listed with virtually no description ("pretty good shape for a nearly 85 year-old penny." - this was in 1992) and a dark picture as bad as some of the "brown blobs" we see on eBay. 'Cuz it was just a low-grade set I was putting together, I figured it would be a hole filler at least. I won the auction for the opening bid ($15.00). What I got was the most wonderful AU with full luster and a strike deep enough to get lost in! I had no idea the Indian Head cent was so strikingly beautiful, having never been a connoisseur of the series, or actually holding one that was higher than a VF. Well...that was it. I knew at once I had to have a set that was worthy of this little gem. My pitiful local coin shop had only three that met my "new and improved" standard for Indianheads so I got stalled right away in my quest. However, when eBay happened, my world opened up, followed immediately by my wallet! I would guess 90% of my coin purchases since then have been Indianheads. Almost everything I get these days are Gem grade slabs. Don't think I'll ever get to Lakesammann's Registry Set level, but I'll give it my best shot on an apartment manager's salary. I work for pennies...literally and figuratively! Gosh...I really like this hobby!

[EZ_E]

AmericanCopper,

 

Grat story! You are truly a collector at heart.

[CTcollector1]

Since Warren, Originality, and Coin Education are currently in the news, I thought it was good to re-cycle this thread. I am so thankful that Warren came into my coin collecting life and I was open to listening to him.

[MikeKing]

I'm glad you did too, this is a great post.

I have several NGC and PCGS coins that are a combination of

1. environmentally damaged (in a pcgs holder)

2. AT ('market acceptable) in both holders

3. Altered surfaces (that vague terms that after having coins rejected by either NGC or PCGS AND reciprocally graded, I've learned more about that waste-basket diagnosis (as we sometimes call things in medicine) of 'altered surfaces')

 

Always learning and not soon enough, but that is what learning is all about, isn't it.

 

Can't rely on either of the two top tier companies for foolproof assessment of coins, and I won't even talk about the new ANACS.

 

We have to rely on OURSELVES and real TEACHERS and good books that have yet to be in print (hopefully HOOT will write one!)

[texasrichard]

That was a great post. I'm not sure why I didn't read it sooner. I've only bought a few low grade coins from RCNH; but was more than pleased when I received them. Nice original, unmessed with coins; and their grade assigned was right on IMO.

 

Again, great post

[Oldtrader3]

Great posts. I think most of us have gone through similar learning experiences while starting to collect coins. I know that I still have a few clunkers to remind myself of past errors in judgement. Interestingly all of the clunkers which I have saved, were purchased from large dealers. The third party grading system through NGC and PCGS has helped level the playing field since the mid-1980's. As the survices have improved their consistancy through the years, fewer AT and altered coins get through onto slabs. However, it still happens which means education and experience are still the collector's best defense against coin doctors.