Wear vs. weak strike on Walkers?

[EZ_E]

Numismatists, I need some feedback, please. I'm working on a mint state collection of Walking Liberty half dollars in low MS condition. As a result, I've been buying un-slabbed coins. The set is notorious for weak strikes, especially on the head. I'm concerned about receiving slider AU coins purchased as Uncirculated. My question is concerning differentiating a slider. One of the first areas to show wear is on Miss Liberty's left hand which hold the oak and laurel stems. A fold of clothing runs parallel with these stems. As mentioned, the head can not necessarily be used to determine wear. How much definition should show along this robe/stem/hand area? Is this area known to be weakly struck? I personally feel that this area will show wear where other areas will not (i.e. the eagle's breast feathers and left wing tip). Am I correct in assuming this? Or does a weak strike obscure the distinction between the above mentioned items on the device? And will the eagle's breast feathers sometimes be weakly struck? I love the series and have a long-term goal of acquiring a complete set at some point but I'm concerned about those blasted sliders. Thanks for any and all feedback. I desperately need it. Thanks again!

[Wihlborg]

Hi victoreasley,

 

The area of Miss Liberty's left hand is notorious for being weakly struck. This is because it is opposite the eagle's left leg on the reverse, which will also be weakly struck. This is the area with the greatest void between the dies when the coin is struck and the metal does not completely flow up and fill this area when the coins are struck.

 

Some dates are known to be much worse than others, such as the 1940s, which even in higher mint state are very weakly struck in this area.

 

The way to tell wear from a weak strike is that a weakly struck area will still be rounded at the high point, where as a worn area will be flat do it the wear. Also look for evidence of rub on the area. And remember, if the left hand is weakly struck the eagles left leg should be also. The strike should look about the same in these two areas.

 

The best way to learn what a weak strike looks like is to look at as many certified coins a possible. After seeing what a weak strike looks like on mint state coins you will have a better idea of what you are looking at when viewing a raw coin.

 

I hope this helps

 

John

 

[nwcs]

An easier thing to look for, I think, would be the dull gray color of wear. It reacts differently to light than a weak strike section does (weak strike areas are typically not dull like wear). And at the right angle in the light, it comes out even more fully in contrast to the surrounding area. High points on the coin are a little different from the place of greatest void so I think you're on the right track. The greatest void is at the hand on the obverse and the eagle's breast feathers on the rev. But you can have excellent eagle breast feather definition and only a partial hand.

 

Neil

[Wihlborg]

Neil,

 

I agree with you about the difference it color. That is what I meant when I said to look for evidence of rub. As for the area of greatest void, it is from the eagle’s breast down through the leg, but in my experience the leg is always more weakly struck than the breast. The breast can have a pretty good strike with feather detail, while the leg will not.

 

John

 

[parasite]

Is it possible to have a weak struck MS-70 Walker half?

 

KINGKOIN KING OF KOINS

[paigow_johnny]

A couple things I look for....

 

Without sounding like a perv, look closely at Liberty's left breast. It should be rounded and not flat. Also, a dealer I know said to look at the stars in the flag on the obverse which shouldn't show dullness/signs of rub, as well as for signs of dullness/rub on Liberty's RIGHT arm.

 

I'm trying to upgrade my short set, and I've got a couple of AUs I'm trying to bring up, so I know what you're going thru.

[paigow_johnny]

The best way to learn what a weak strike looks like is to look at as many certified coins a possible.

 

My problem with this is...I find a lot of 64 and 65 certified Walkers, and I'm not gonna go that high for my Dansco raw short set....I don't find a lot of 62s and 63s to help train my eye...

[nwcs]

>Is it possible to have a weak struck MS-70 Walker half?

 

No, by current standards a weakly struck walker (no hand) maxes out at MS 64. A partial hand allows for 65.

[Wihlborg]

Hi paigow_johnny,

 

I find a lot of 64 and 65 certified Walkers, and I'm not gonna go that high for my Dansco raw short set....I don't find a lot of 62s and 63s to help train my eye...

 

What you have to remember is that you are not trying to learn how weakly struck a coin can be for a given grade, only what the characteristics of a weak strike look like.

 

John

 

[BillJones]

Some issues of this coin (e.g. 1941-S) tend to be weakly struck along Ms. Liberty's body and on the corresponding area on the reverse along the eagle’s body. It takes practice to learn the difference between weak strikes and wear. Generally a weakly struck piece will still have mint frost on the poorly defined areas. There may appear to be marks along the poorly struck surfaces because the dies did not remove the marks that were on the planchet before it was struck. The best and most frequent examples of this can be seen on many Sesquicentennial commemorative half dollars.

 

One place you might check out is MS. Liberty’s breast. If she has a rub there or if the mint frost is broken, that can be an indicator that the coin is a “slider” and not full Mint State. Generally coins that are sold as low Mint State will be “sliders” (AU-58) with smooth surfaces and eye appeal or true Mint State coins will marks are spots.

 

Believe or not the best buys can be in slabs that are in MS-63 and 64 holders for common date coins in the 1940s and late 1930s. These coins have often been graded by the roll, and the graders can get sloppy. I’ve seen coins MS-64 holders that were clearly MS-65. The reason why they are still in those holders was because there is not enough of an upside to crack them and send them in for grading.

 

[paigow_johnny]

What you have to remember is that you are not trying to learn how weakly struck a coin can be for a given grade, only what the characteristics of a weak strike look like.

 

I guess what I'm saying....the 64s/65s I've seen in slabs don't have a weak strike, or at least what I think is a weak strike. I'd like to see some "no kidding 62/63s" that are market/service acceptable and see what their weak strike looks like compared to my impression. In my mind, that would help me be a little more clear when calling my AU half really an MS with a weak strike.

[Wihlborg]

paigow_johnny,

 

Here a few photos of different amounts of weak strikes. This is an MS-63 coin. Notice that the hand and leg do show some strike weakness, but it is not to bad.

[Wihlborg]

This is a MS-65 coin. The hand is a little weaklier struck than the MS-63 coin, but the overall coin is nicer.

[Wihlborg]

Here is the obverse of a 1940s in MS-64. This is a coin that is notorious for being weakly struck. As you can see, even though it grades higher than the MS-63 coin the MS-63 is better struck.

[Wihlborg]

And finally, this is the reverse of the 1940s. You can see that the area of weakness is opposite of the area of weakness on the obverse due to this being the area of greatest void between the dies when the coin was struck

 

I hope this helps

 

John

[coinman1794]

It does help to know which spots are often weak and what a weak strike looks like, but the only way to tell between AU and MS is to actually look for wear itself. You need to look for rub on the high-points under a light source, rotating the coin around. Detail itself does not help with telling the difference.

[Wihlborg]

coinman1794,

 

I agree. That's why I said to look for rub on these areas in my first post on this subject.

 

John

 

[BankNote1]

I have found a lot of dealers sell AU's for low grade MS coins. High end AU58's usually look better than low grade MS coins, anyway, IMO.

[coinman1794]

I knew I should have read all the posts before adding my two cents worth!

[EZ_E]

John,

The obverse of your posted 1940 S is exactly what I was questioning! Notice that there is absolutely no detail or separation between the laurel & oak stems and the fold of the robe. On some of mine ('41D, 42S, 43S, 45D), they appear like this. However, the area appears flattened and not rounded as some advised. This suggests wear, doesn't it?

I see what you mean about the lack of detail on the eagle's left leg. Makes sense that not enough metal was able to fill the die during striking. The breast feathers sure were sharp, though. I have some with poor relief there. What does this indicate?

I believe most of my coins were dipped (although lustre still remains and it was nicely done). This means that I can't distinquish rubbed areas to determine the grade. Too bad, so sad.

Thanks to everyone who posted. I'm going to print this out and chew on it for awhile. Thanks so much for the attachments, John. These were the most help of all. Thanks Paigow Johnny for your input and empathy.

Even though some sliders may have more eye appeal than low ms grades, the fact remains that they are still circulated which undermines my goal. I currently have my collection in a Dansco album but I just ordered an intercept shield album. I plan to house my uncirculated specimens in the intercept (along with the complete set of circulated coins) and slowly replace them. This will mean that in a a couple of hundred years or so I will have two complete sets: one circulated and one uncirculated.

Thanks again, everyone! This column rules!

[paigow_johnny]

Very good Wihlborg...thanks...

[Wihlborg]

Glad to help.

 

John

[EZ_E]

ttt

 

Great topic that relates to Mark Feld's "plagerized" post.

[Oldtrader3]

Here is an attachment of a 1943-D, MS66 WL, for comparison. Note that left hand and leg detail are well struck for a 40's series Walker.

[michael]

really interesting thread to me

 

i learned lots about one of the hardest series to grade

 

walkers!!

 

especially since you see many called choice unc. coins that are au and many called au that are choice unc.

 

michael

[jom]

I don't know if this was mentioned but note that an early date Walker will be weakly struck in different areas than a late date. According to Bruce Fox (whose book you should own if you collect the series) many of the early dated Walkers have weakly struck heads and skirt lines. I don't know if you are doing the early part of the series (many don't) but either way you should get that book.....

 

jom