Beware!!!

[Prethen]

These guys are total insufficiently_thoughtful_persons. Every time I see an ad in the coin rags it's a total joke. Just about every coin grade is a Choice grade (15, 35, 45, 55)...seriously!!! I've called them to see if I can get someone to look at a coin they advertised so I can ask specific questions about it and they basically said that they won't do that for anyone. The lady on the other end said, just tell me what your coin to look like and we'll send it out to you. They take us for fools! Don't buy from them unless you want to be suckered.

[EZ_E]

I had actually had some good experiences with them in the past with some modern commems and cameo Franklin and Kennedy halves. That is why I gave them a shot on a couple of type coins. Definitely my bad!!

 

Never again!

[KurtHorn]

We all complain about the problems on Ebay. They don't even come close to the problems with many Coin World and similar publications advertisers. I bought a "VF" bust half recently sent it to ANACS and it came back VG 8. Of course they won't stand behind their sale, because now it is no longer in their holder, it's in an ANACS slab. I also saw recently that the ANA has kicked out Coast to Coast coins guy for similar problems. It's nice to see the ANA police their members a little. Now if we could only get Coin World to police their advertisers. Oops, there's that small issue of revenue.

 

Actually I like Coin World and I know they need the revenue to keep the price down, so, I just ignore the ads. All of them.

[midwest]

I also saw recently that the ANA has kicked out Coast to Coast coins guy for similar problems. It's nice to see the ANA police their members a little.

 

 

Back in 2003 to be exact.

[JamminJ]

We all complain about the problems on Ebay. They don't even come close to the problems with many Coin World and similar publications advertisers. I bought a "VF" bust half recently sent it to ANACS and it came back VG 8. Of course they won't stand behind their sale, because now it is no longer in their holder, it's in an ANACS slab.

 

Just curious, what grade did you think the half deserved?

 

There's a pretty big difference betweeen VF and VG so I'd be surprized if you couldn't tell something was amiss before removing it form the original flip.

[gmarguli]

We all complain about the problems on Ebay. They don't even come close to the problems with many Coin World and similar publications advertisers. I bought a "VF" bust half recently sent it to ANACS and it came back VG 8. Of course they won't stand behind their sale, because now it is no longer in their holder, it's in an ANACS slab.

 

I've seen your stuff on eBay and I assume you are a dealer.

 

1) When the "VF" Bust half arrived from the dealer and you saw it, didn't you notice that it was overgraded by 12 points? That is a BIG spread in the grade. If not, why are you buying raw coins?

 

2) Why not return the coin after seeing it?

 

3) What was your hope for slabbing such an inexpensive coin (provided it wasn't a better date/variety)?

 

4) Why should the dealer take the coin back after it was removed from their holder. I know a lot of people don't like it when dealers say this, but they likely sell a lot of coins. This is a form of protectio for them. They need some insurance against unethical/clueless buyers.

[EZ_E]

A little follow-up info of my complaint sent to the ANA and the BBB:

 

Complaint against John Paul Sarosi, Inc.

 

 

I, Victor D. Easley, am lodging a three-fold complaint against John Paul Sarosi specifically and John Paul Sarosi, Inc. in general.

 

1)For advertising blatantly overgraded and misrepresented items.

 

2)For not making full refunds on returned items.

 

3)For extremely rude and obnoxious behavior peppered with extreme vulgarity.

 

I placed an order the first week of May for $650 with John Paul Sarosi, Inc. I was told that it would take three weeks to fulfill the order. That was fine. When I did receive the order on June 2nd, three of the seven items ordered were completely unacceptable. I returned the three items via registered mail (#RR290880266US) on June 2, 2005. I then received a partial refund on June 18, 2005. Details to follow.

 

This was my order:

 

1 1965 SMS set w/ cameo 50C $35.00

 

1 1030 P 25C SLQ MS-64 $220.00

 

1 1909 VDB 1C MS 66 RED $110.00

 

1 1964 50C Kennedy PR 67 Cameo $79.00

 

1 1999 Dolly Madison $ BU $55.00

 

1 1997 Jackie Robinson $ PR $83.00

 

1 1996 Smithsonian $ PR $68.00

_________

$650.00

 

Minus a coupon for $50 off orders over $500 = $600.00

 

 

Now each of the three complaints shall be addressed in more detail:

 

1)For advertising blatantly overgraded and misrepresented items.

 

I am a senior numismatist who has invested hundreds of hours in the study, reading and discussion of coins. In addition, I have attended the ANA Official Coin Grading Seminar. So, the following opinions are tempered with knowledge.

 

a)The 1909 VDB cent was advertised as “MS-66 Fiery Mint State Red”.

 

The pricing structure will often give hints of the true nature of a coin. A true MS 66 RED coin brings from $250-$300 in today’s market. So, I knew that with a price tag of $110 that this advertised coin was not truly a 66 but, I had hoped, would be a very nice, original MS 65 RED example. When received, I was sorely disappointed. It not only was an ugly, unoriginal coin but there was a huge rim disturbance immediately below the date. The fact that is was a damaged and unoriginal example of this coinage type would result in this coin being rejected for certification by the leading Third Party Grading Services. In reality, this was a $25 coin.

 

b)The 1930 Standing Liberty Quarter would also have been rejected to be graded by the leading Third Party Grading Services.

 

Upon placement of my order, I requested from Mary Sarosi to have a sharply struck mint state example for my type collection. I additionally stated that I would pay a premium for a top example. She and John Paul Sarosi, Inc. took a full three weeks to fulfill this order which should have provided sufficient time to obtain the request example. Yet, when I received my example in the mail, it was also a problem coin which would have been rejected by any numismatist with the least bit of knowledge. It was a 1930 dated example which statistically is the sharpest struck date of the series with approximately 45% of the coins struck being graded as a Full Head specimen due to the sharp strikes. This coin had been dipped in an acidic solution that had been overused. I could tell this because of all of the excess silver ions contained within the overused dipping solution coated this quarter with a silver plating. This results in a glossy, oily, un-natural surface on the coin. Any numismatist worth his salt would reject this example in a heart beat. It was realistically a $75-$100 coin.

 

c)The 1965 Special Mint Set was acceptable by most people’s standards but it did not meet my approval for esthetic reasons. Not John Paul Sarosi, Inc.’s fault.

 

d)The other coins ordered were perfectly acceptable which is evidenced by the fact that I kept them.

 

 

2)For not making full refunds on returned items.

 

As mentioned, I returned three items on June 2nd via USPS Registered Mail. These three items were: 1) 1965 SMS for $35 2)1930 quarter for $220 and 3)1909 VDB cent for $110.

 

This means that I was due a refund of a maximum of $365 and a minimum refund of $315 if one subtracts the $50 coupon, which should have been prorated for my kept order of $285 which I requested. Yet, on June 18th of 2005 I only received a refund for $266.05. This is a very large discrepancy that John Paul Sarosi refused to address. Instead he cursed me and hung up the phone, twice. I shall go into detail concerning this now.

 

 

3)For extremely rude and obnoxious behavior peppered with extreme vulgarity.

 

Finally, after frequent checking of my online account for my credit card, I noticed the partial refund on June 24 at approximately 11:00 Pacific Standard Time. I immediately called John Paul Sarosi, Inc.’s toll free number. I was civil and I merely asked for details about why there was a discrepancy. I stated the reason why I returned the coins without malice or vulgarity. John Paul Sarosi then commenced a barrage of vulgarities that even offended me, an ex-sailor. I told him that I had not called to argue but to obtain an answer about the disputed refund. He stated that they do not refund postage. Fine, but this had nothing whatsoever to do with the discrepancy of the refunded amount. This guy continued his cursing and severe disrespect and said, upon my request for further clarification, “What!? Are you stupid or what? I told you that we do not refund postage.” He continued his swearing and then hung up on me. I called him back and was hung up on again.

 

I have included a copy of a thread that I started on the NGC coin forums. It gives some additional details and verifies that many other individuals have had similar experiences with this guy. Please, take action on this matter. Do not overlook it or downplay the incident. I request that severe sanctions or even expulsion from the ANA be implemented. I am also filing a complaint with the Better Business Bureau and with Coin World. Please keep me informed.

 

 

Sincerely,

 

 

Victor D. Easley

ANA # 1205126

 

P.S. Copies of Original receipt and USPS Registed Mail receipt included

 

Gee, Disney writes better fiction that this!

 

July 19, 2004

 

a)The 1909-P VDB had die overflow on the rim. This is natural.

 

Hello! It was a ding right on the lip of the rim below the date.

 

b)My name is Kathy, not Mary. He place his order on 5/10/05. As John was in the hospital with heart problems from 5/3-5/7 and had to recover from his operation, ALL CUSTOMERS from 5/4 on were told I was behind on orders, working by myself as fast as I could and ALL were told "orders I am taking now should have out to you in 3-4 weeks"> I was actually early on his order. He did not pay for Full Head on the quarter, so should not expect for the same price. The chemical analysis I do not understand.

 

OK. I'll give them that one. She knows her name. I never made an issue out of the timing. I never once called before or after the order was received until I noticed the improper refund amount. That was the only reason I called and if that vile, vile old fart never would have cursed me and had given me a reason for the discrepancy then this incident never would have happened. The only reason the I mentioned Full Head is to show that statistically, the 1930 usually comes strongly struck and it was not a Herculean task.

 

c)I did figure refund incorrectly. I seem to have credited his card with the amount he purchased, not returned. But even that does not work out correctly. I have attached my copy of his invoice. Don't know how it happened. Must have been doing mor than one thing at a time, or hit wrong buttons on calculator. In normal circustances I would apologize to customer and send him a coupon for $5.00 off his next purchase. However, in this case, I chose to do neither. I credited him $48.95.

 

Never ever make excuses. Your friends don't need the and your enemies won't believe you anyway!!!

 

d) Unless he was standing in a cave and his words came floating back to him, he heard no vulgarities on our end. I was sitting next to John when the phone call came in. Then John hung up he told me the conversation started off with "garage [embarrasing lack of self control] you sent to me" and went down hill from there. John said he never heard someone swear so much in so short of time. John said he hung up on him when his vulgarities spead to "that f...ing [embarrasing lack of self control] who works for you".

 

I immediately made a note to cross him off the mailing list.

 

I am still shaking my head in unbelief at these statements. This paragraph more than anything tells me that this bunch is the most unethical garbage that I have EVER dealt with in my life and I have encountered many squirrelly individuals in my time. The only thing that is even remotely true is that I started my conversation off with, "I would like to know why there is a discrepancy in my refund. I returned the 1909 P VDB for a severe rim ding and unnatural color when it was described as mint state 66 fiery red and the 1930 SLQ that was dipped in an overused solution... (Well, I had probably done close to $1500-2000 or more in business in the past and felt betrayed by the shiesters but my tone still was not disrespectful, just incredulous). Then JPS started a tirade of vulgarities at me. What makes sense here? Why would I go through all of the trouble of writing letters and filing complaints if I was in the wrong? I'm not as ticked off as when the incident occurred but I am still incredulous and perturbed at the audacity of the no good liars. Kathy outright lies! Well, what is to be expected? She is his niece, I understand. Her attitude has almost always been as sour as his, just more subdued.

 

Now, this statement really offends me! : John said he hung up on him when his vulgarities spead to "that f...ing [embarrasing lack of self control] who works for you".

 

I never once brought her into it. I almost did at the end of the second conversation but I held my tongue and just left the conversation in silence with an uncompleted sentence. Once the millionaire, arrogant PAN president commenced to cursing me then you bet I cussed him right back. I don't play, period. As a radiologic technologist I always provide extremely high customer/patient care and will treat all: convicts/drunks/bank presidents and millionaires the same, with respect, humor and dignity. However, if I am ever personally affronted then I will most certainly retaliate in whatever means available. I have never and will never tolerate disrespect. I will occassionally overlook some remarks but his tirade of obscenities would not and could not be ignored. What outright, blatant lies!!! As mentioned, this alone tells me the character of these unscrupulous individuals!!!

 

In addition, I just received another one of their mailers after I requested to be taken off of their mailing list. See, another lie of theirs. Just amazing! I'm certainly not naive by any means. I've been to over 20 countries and all fifty states, have x-rayed/cat scanned/MRI's countless tens of thousands of people but I am still amazed at this crew.

 

 

 

 

e)Although I try not to, anyone can make mistakes in addition and subtraction. I f customer had called and explained or questioned the refund amount without the negative comments and swearing he would have received immediate attention and an apology.

So now, he should have his full credit $266.05 on 6/17/05

$48.95 on 7/18/05

The coupon was not allowed for the $50.00 off as only good with a $550.00 or more purchase.

 

We do not have a computer. We keep "cards" on customer with address, phone, comments. Before this order I had two comment on his card. One for attitude on the telephone (smart aleck) and one for cancelling an order after telephoning in as he stated "he ran out of money" a year ago.

 

Sincerely,

 

Kathy Sarosi

Vice President

 

That is exactly what I tried to do in the first place! Duh, you . It was because of John Paul Sarosi's arrogance and attempted intimidation tactics that cause this situation to flare up in the first place. Just read some of the comments on this site and the PCGS thread (http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=26&threadid=354560&highlight_key=y&keyword1=Sarosi) about his phone manners and arrogance. He tries to bully anyone and any situation that doesn't go his way. You may be tempted to say the same thing about me but this is a whole different set of circumstances.

 

And, no computers? What comment could I ever offer about this backward behavior?

 

And, little index cards noting behavior? OK, third grade is dismissed. This was the first time that I had ever spoken to "the man", himself. I had always dealt with Kathy the three or four times in the past that I had placed an order with them. She was always curt and bordered on rude. But, the bottom line is the product so I overlooked their behavior and once attempted to joke with her. So, I'm labeled a "smart aleck" for it. Oh well. Waaaah! Too bad, so sad.

 

And I did cancel an order when I terminated an assignment and funds were low and it took their usual 3-6 weeks to make good on it.

 

 

 

So, that's it. This summs up my experience with A Tale of Two Boneheads

[EZ_E]

 

PCGS thread with JPS's antics noted

 

 

What really bothers me are the dealers who do not allow "those @#!&% die variety collectors" to look at their inventory, afraid that they will get ripped, yet they do not bother to attribute their coins themselves. In a recent thread about John Paul Sarosi, I was going to relate an occurance from a few years ago where a Bust dime collector and fellow JRCS member happened upon JPS's table, and asked to look at his Bust dimes. After spending only a few minutes looking at Bust dimes, JPS apparently determined that the collector was one of those "@#$%! variety collectors", and in a tyraid of profanity and vulgarity asked him to leave, which he did without hesitation or argument. However, that was apparently not enough, as JPS continued his loud and profane rail against die marriage collectors until security and the show promoter threatened him with expulsion if he could not conduct himself in a civilized manner. It is beyond me why any dealer would not allow a "variety collector" to pursue his or her hobby at their table, just like any other collector, particularly if the dealer himself can not or would not attribute the coins themselves. This, of course, assumes that the collector observes the rules of bourse etiquet, and does not unnecessarily take up the dealer's time, cover his table with books and notes, and prevent other business from occuring.

 

************************************************

 

I couldn't agree with you more

 

As to Mr Sarosi, it's a good thing this didn't happen at the PAN show, as that unfortunate collector would have been kicked out of the show and banned from it for life. I strictly avoid Mr sarosi at his own show, as well as about half a dozen other very nasty dealers that always show up there.

[EZ_E]

My understanding is that he had heart surgery a month ago. The guy will be dead in 2 years if he doesn't learn to control his anxiety level.

 

Hmmm......I think the guy is still kicking. Too bad, so sad.

[CHABSENTIA]

I do not order raw coins from any Dealer in Coin world. Sims is another one in it that advertises premium quality coins and sends junk.

[EZ_E]

Notice that I wrote this back in 2005. It has been over two years and the guy still hasn't dropped dead from a heart attack like I predicted. Guess that I'm no Nostradamus.

 

And, a collector should never, ever buy raw coins from the pages of the periodicals! That should be a cardinal rule never to be broken except for moderns.

[jesbroken]

I have dealt with similiar dealers in the past(not just coins) and this change in attitude is usually indicative of a failing business. At this level of customer abuse, he surely will not be around very long. You should tell this ATS just to get the message out. Sorry for your poor treatment.

Jim

[WoodenJefferson]

One of these times, the dealer might run into a character as portrayed in the movie, Falling Down

 

William Foster (Michael Douglas)

 

William Foster enters a fast food restaurant and attempts to order breakfast, but cannot get it since the switch from breakfast to lunch menu has already occurred. After a tense argument with the manager, Foster draws a weapon from his bag and fires into the ceiling, scaring the employees and customers badly. After trying to reassure them, he decides to order lunch but is outraged when the burger he receives looks nothing like the thick, juicy one shown on the menu board. He leaves, tries to call his wife from a phone booth, then shoots the phone to pieces when a man complains that he is taking too long.

 

 

[EZ_E]

Good movie! I just don't condone his actions although I'm sure that more than a few may deserve a pistol whip or two.

[jgrinz]

Did this really need resurrecting ...

 

[EZ_E]

Did this really need resurrecting ...

 

Let me think........ ...........YES!

 

It serves as a reminder to the new collector to not approach these dealers with blinders on.

 

Sure, it's a lot of drama but it's message is clear: caveat emptor!