Staci89 Posted August 9 Share Posted August 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Bob Posted August 9 Share Posted August 9 That doesn’t look like hub doubling to me. It looks more like die erosion. Coinbuf 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Meenderink Posted August 9 Share Posted August 9 Notches and obvious doubling with east shift. May be very light hub doubling since there are separations of the end of the numbers in the date. See below. GoldFinger1969 and Coinbuf 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coinbuf Posted August 9 Share Posted August 9 (edited) On 8/9/2024 at 7:10 AM, Mike Meenderink said: Notches and obvious doubling with east shift. May be very light hub doubling since there are separations of the end of the numbers in the date. See below. @Staci89 again please disregard this bogus misinformation, the master of "I just like to start stuff" is again wrong. Let me explain why he is wrong, doubled dies are created when the die is made. What happens is the die is struck multiple times, between one of those strikes the die shifts, this is very rare which is why coins that display true hub doubling are rare and command value premiums. The shift can go up, down, left or right, but what cannot and has never happened is for the die to shift multiple directions and have doubling on both sides of the numerals as you see in your coin. Please refer to the red arrows that Mike drew, notice the doubling on the number 8 is on the viewers right while the adjacent number 5 the doubling is on the viewers left. This is physically impossible to be true hub doubling, that means it can only be die erosion as suggested by @Just Bob or as I already said simple strike (AKA mechanical) doubling. Also true hub doubling is not mushy and squishy like on your coin, it is clear and distinct and easily seen, I will include a photo of a very rare double die coin so you can see the obvious difference between your coin and a coin struck with a real doubled die. Notice that the doubling on the 1969-S photo is all in the same direction not this way and that way. Another key distinction between the worthless and true doubled die is the height of the doubling, true doubling is at or almost at the same level as the original lettering. While strike doubling and erosion are lower, refer to the diagram I've posted below, notice how on your coin the relief of the doubling is lower and slopes away from the numeral, classic strike doubling. The US mint is a high speed high through put production facility, not every coin produced is checked for quality and minor quality issues like die erosion and strike doubling happen with great regularity. Remember that these coins were meant to be used in commerce and perfection was/is not a requirement. Your photos are still very grainy and pixilated, are you using screen grabs or taking a photo of your monitor screen? These are really inferior types of photos for fine details, you need a macro camera to get decent closeups of this type of detail. Here is an informational chart that was created by another numismatist, this shows the differences between a normal strike, true hub doubling, and the worthless strike doubling. There are many on-line references that I can provide to you that detail the process of die making that I briefly outlined above if you want to know more about the minting and die preparation process. Edited August 9 by Coinbuf Mike Meenderink 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Meenderink Posted August 9 Share Posted August 9 Coinbuf is so desperate to prove me wrong he's making a fool out of himself. I find it entertaining. The coin is hub doubled and mechanical doubled. He just can't admit it since he took the opposite position. Whatever. Coinbuf 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coinbuf Posted August 9 Share Posted August 9 (edited) On 8/9/2024 at 10:31 AM, Mike Meenderink said: Coinbuf is so desperate to prove me wrong he's making a fool out of himself. I find it entertaining. The coin is hub doubled and mechanical doubled. He just can't admit it since he took the opposite position. Whatever. "Mike is so desperate to prove me wrong he's making a fool out of himself. I find it entertaining. The coin is mechanical doubled. He just can't admit it since he took the opposite position. Whatever." Fixed it for you, your welcome. Edited August 9 by Coinbuf Mike Meenderink 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Meenderink Posted August 9 Share Posted August 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Meenderink Posted August 9 Share Posted August 9 And no Staci this only made it worse. LOL...don't worry we do this all the time....In this world consensus is a fleeting and fickle mistress. I don't want you to be discouraged because we argue about coins. Thats just what we do. We all learn from the discourse and sometimes no one is right. The point is careful study and discussion (sometimes heated) is a key part of numismatics. Arguments over differences of opinion on grade, errors, variety attributions, metallurgy etc.. are often what keep the hobby thriving and alive. Coinbuf like myself is a highly experienced collector and numismatist. He garners my respect, but we do not always agree on everything. As it should be. Many times, we can agree. This time we will agree to disagree. His points are valid. My points are valid. Welcome to numismatics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandon Posted August 9 Share Posted August 9 Based on what I can see in the newer photos (which could have been posted as a reply to the original topic on this coin), the date has some die chips on the 9,5, and 8 and also has some strike doubling on the date. Die chips are very common on and around letters and numerals on coins of this era. I don't think that this coin exhibits the characteristics of a doubled die. powermad5000 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ldhair Posted August 9 Share Posted August 9 On 8/9/2024 at 12:31 PM, Mike Meenderink said: Coinbuf is so desperate to prove me wrong he's making a fool out of himself. I find it entertaining. The coin is hub doubled and mechanical doubled. He just can't admit it since he took the opposite position. Whatever. Mike. Please stop posting false information. Enough is enough. Learn the truth and stop posting if you don't know the truth. You are the only one making a fool of yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post R__Rash Posted August 9 Popular Post Share Posted August 9 (edited) On 8/8/2024 at 9:01 PM, Staci89 said: I am posting this only to demonstrate an example of extreme machine/mechanical doubling. I found this one about 14 years ago and hung onto it just to use as an example to show should anyone be interested, as future reference. I thought it was DD, Coneca board, since then, verified it was not. Date MD with a small chip in the nine. Good luck Edited August 9 by R__Rash Spell powermad5000, Coinbuf and Sandon 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henri Charriere Posted August 9 Share Posted August 9 On 8/9/2024 at 2:36 PM, ldhair said: Mike ... You are the only one making a fool of yourself. I vociferously object to that characterization! Are you implying I have competition -- or worse, am a has-been? No other member has been BANNED PERMANENTLY -- on three separate occasions. I may not be as erudite as some of you, but please don't arbitrarily take my rank and re-assign it to another member. One insurmountable problem is @Coinbuf has likely amassed one of the finest Set Registries of Lincoln Head Cents in at least the last millennium. I cannot challenge him. For starters, I only have one good leg. I like Mike. He may not have a chopper, but he gets around. I would take a bullet for him, just for drill. I was unaware any 1969 LHC bore signs of die-doubling. It is a very fine example.. As to the misunderstanding between Messrs. @Coinbuf and @Mike Meenderink I am afraid I am not smart enough to know who's right and who's wrong. ThePhiladelphiaPenny 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWB Posted August 9 Share Posted August 9 The pictured coin is not a doubled die cent - based on the photos. Sandon is correct. powermad5000 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powermad5000 Posted August 9 Share Posted August 9 I guess I replied in the other thread with new pictures. I saw die erosion/deterioration doubling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Meenderink Posted August 10 Share Posted August 10 On 8/9/2024 at 11:56 AM, R__Rash said: I am posting this only to demonstrate an example of extreme machine/mechanical doubling. I found this one about 14 years ago and hung onto it just to use as an example to show should anyone be interested, as future reference. I thought it was DD, Coneca board, since then, verified it was not. Date MD with a small chip in the nine. Good luck No notches R__Rash 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Meenderink Posted August 10 Share Posted August 10 Ok guys you win its whatever you say it is. I give up. I'm not continuing this. Mike doesn't get a sticker this time awwww.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powermad5000 Posted August 10 Share Posted August 10 On 8/9/2024 at 9:00 PM, Mike Meenderink said: Mike doesn't get a sticker this time awwww.. It's ok. I will say at least you are not one of those posting damaged coins thinking they are errors or have some kind of numismatic value, so I'll give ya a sticker for that. ThePhiladelphiaPenny and Mike Meenderink 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henri Charriere Posted August 11 Share Posted August 11 On 8/9/2024 at 3:57 PM, RWB said: The pictured coin is not a doubled die cent - based on the photos. Sandon is correct. Respectfully, the numismatic term used to describe a suspected DDO which subsequently is determined to be nothing of the kind is a DODO. Malheureusement, my alter-ego Quintus Arrius coined it and the coil collecting hobby has rejected it. 🤣 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
