micoin Posted August 1 Share Posted August 1 first off what is NGA's full step definition? second off are proofs nickels graded ? as some have full step and some don't have FS. My understanding is to be rated FS it has to have at least 5 full "uninterrupted" steps to qualify as a full step nickel any steps that join or fuse together or damage the incised lines (tread) or riser portion of the step whether created that way or subsequently damaged cannot be a considered full step Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coinbuf Posted August 1 Share Posted August 1 (edited) On 8/1/2024 at 2:39 PM, micoin said: first off what is NGA's full step definition? second off are proofs nickels graded ? as some have full step and some don't have FS. My understanding is to be rated FS it has to have at least 5 full "uninterrupted" steps to qualify as a full step nickel any steps that join or fuse together or damage the incised lines (tread) or riser portion of the step whether created that way or subsequently damaged cannot be a considered full step Welcome to the forum, your definition is essentially the same as NGC. NGC will designate both 5 full steps and 6 full steps, PCGS and most other TPG's only require the 5 full steps and do not call out those that have the full six steps. Proof nickels are expected to have full steps due to the extra care and precision of the proof minting process, as such no major TPG's designate FS on proof coinage. Having said that, strike designations like FS or FB or FBL (full bell lines) are often applied in what can often seem like a rather random fashion and not following a strict protocol. I have seen many FS designated nickels that do not meet the requirement in my eye, and on occasion some that are obvious but with no FS designation. Edited August 1 by Coinbuf powermad5000 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
micoin Posted August 1 Author Share Posted August 1 I have yet to see what I would call 6 steps on a nickel can you post a picture so I can see what is defined as 6 steps? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coinbuf Posted August 1 Share Posted August 1 On 8/1/2024 at 3:11 PM, micoin said: I have yet to see what I would call 6 steps on a nickel can you post a picture so I can see what is defined as 6 steps? I'm not a nickel collector myself so I do not have one in my collection to show you. I suggest that you might want to review the NGC explorer for any photos of coins that NGC has graded as 6FS. Also, just about any modern proof coin will show a full six steps on the rev. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
micoin Posted August 1 Author Share Posted August 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
micoin Posted August 1 Author Share Posted August 1 I'm sending a proof of a1999s please count the 6 steps for me it's not the best on the steps but I only see 5 if you want I'll send a different coin picture this was just a coin I had laying around it seems that the commercial grading company's are all grading them differently some good info. can be found at http://www.biblical-data.org/The_steps_review.pdf there is no consistency for commercial slabbed coins, after rea ding his paper I found one big fault on page 11 in the purple stylobyte he shows 6 incused lines as the steps I only see 5 encased steps no matter how hard I look at my actual coins I have but Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coinbuf Posted August 1 Share Posted August 1 On 8/1/2024 at 3:55 PM, micoin said: I'm sending a proof of a1999s please count the 6 steps for me it's not the best on the steps but I only see 5 if you want I'll send a different coin picture this was just a coin I had laying around it seems that the commercial grading company's are all grading them differently some good info. can be found at http://www.biblical-data.org/The_steps_review.pdf there is no consistency for commercial slabbed coins, after rea ding his paper I found one big fault on page 11 in the purple stylobyte he shows 6 incused lines as the steps I only see 5 encased steps no matter how hard I look at my actual coins I have but Your photo is far too low resolution and photos of coin taken in 2X2's are seldom of good enough quality due to the reflection and distortion of the mylar window to see fine details. The top step is the one that the collum's are resting on and it seems that you are not counting that. If you were walking up the Monticello steps you would have to step up onto the stylobate (not stylobyte), thus that is the sixth step. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
micoin Posted August 1 Author Share Posted August 1 When FSNC and PAC started grading they started on the top and stepped down Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J P M Posted August 1 Share Posted August 1 Here is a 6-step coin. PCGS does not have 5 or 6 step coins only FS coins The Neophyte Numismatist and rrantique 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henri Charriere Posted August 1 Share Posted August 1 On 8/1/2024 at 6:45 PM, micoin said: Quote Kindly advise the gentleman, whose visage above I can't quite place due to lack of detail, that his example, devoid of all critical so-called Full-Step detail due to mirror-like quality, complements him perfectly. For an authoritative account on the Step phenomena (No, not the Russian Steppes) try Coin World whose autopsy diagrams with the correct technical names for each of the critical anatomical parts, was superb. Perhaps a helpful member here (in an infinitely better mood) can provide a solid lead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
micoin Posted August 1 Author Share Posted August 1 some good info can be found at Jefferson Nickels Graded Full Steps By PCGS - Coin Community Forum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henri Charriere Posted August 1 Share Posted August 1 On 8/1/2024 at 7:34 PM, J P M said: Here is a 6-step coin. PCGS does not have 5 or 6 step coins only FS coins As one who has always admired the House of Morgan and trust your holdings implicitly, alas, the detail sought is not apparent and without a cert # it is not possible to look it up. Make no mistake: I honor your political and religious persuasion regarding the public display of numerology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J P M Posted August 1 Share Posted August 1 On 8/1/2024 at 7:42 PM, Henri Charriere said: As one who has always admired the House of Morgan and trust your holdings implicitly, alas, the detail sought is not apparent and without a cert # it is not possible to look it up. Make no mistake: I honor your political and religious persuasion regarding the public display of numerology. Ok Henri, But the NGC pictures are not much better Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post J P M Posted August 1 Popular Post Share Posted August 1 (edited) I think he is looking for just step pictures. This is a PCGS FS Edited August 1 by J P M The Neophyte Numismatist, rrantique and powermad5000 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henri Charriere Posted August 1 Share Posted August 1 On 8/1/2024 at 7:47 PM, J P M said: I think he is looking for just step pictures. This is a PCGS FS Much better!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
micoin Posted August 2 Author Share Posted August 2 with 5 steps Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J P M Posted August 2 Share Posted August 2 (edited) NGC considers all PCGS coins as 5 step coins even if they have 6 steps showing like the one above. Edited August 2 by J P M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
micoin Posted August 2 Author Share Posted August 2 is there any thing specific I should get in coin world? I already have the analyst 2nd ed., downloaded a re-evaluation, purchased the u s nickel five-cent piece, and have the red book on buffalo and Jefferson nickels. I used to be a machinist and I'm thinking about cutting a coin in half thru Monticello so I can magnify and visualize steps CIII 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henri Charriere Posted August 2 Share Posted August 2 On 8/1/2024 at 8:40 PM, micoin said: ....I used to be a machinist and I'm thinking about cutting a coin in half thru Monticello so I can magnify and visualize steps You gotta love this place! On another thread, a highly-regarded member who has made his position on counterfeiters and counterfeits plain, has now voiced his opinion that no true numismatist would conduct sound-tests on coins dropped from unspecified heights onto unspecified presumably resonant surfaces. To emphasize his point, he uses ALL BOLD UNDERLINED CAPITAL LETTERS. Comes now member micoin who, with a child-like innocence, suggests an interest in conducting a surgical procedure on a contemporary nickel to satisfy his innate curiosity and contribute to the "body of knowledge" in the hobby, strictly for legitimate scientific purposes. powermad5000 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CIII Posted August 2 Share Posted August 2 I would love to see that. Go for it. Wear eye protection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandon Posted August 2 Share Posted August 2 On 8/1/2024 at 5:39 PM, micoin said: what is NGA's [NGC's?] full step definition? NGC posted an article in 2018 on this subject, with images. See Learn Grading: What Are 5FS and 6FS? | NGC (ngccoin.com). On 8/1/2024 at 5:39 PM, micoin said: second off are proofs nickels graded ? No. Neither NGC nor PCGS give FS designations to proof Jefferson nickels, which only receive numerical grades as the vast majority of them have full steps. This is also mentioned in the previously linked article. Here is an image (courtesy of Stacks Bowers Galleries) of the reverse of a proof 1942-P wartime piece graded PR 66+ by PCGS, with no designation. However, this coin seems to exhibit maximum step definition and if such pieces were designated would presumably receive the "6FS" designation from NGC: Henri Charriere and powermad5000 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powermad5000 Posted August 2 Share Posted August 2 On 8/1/2024 at 7:40 PM, micoin said: I used to be a machinist and I'm thinking about cutting a coin in half thru Monticello so I can magnify and visualize steps I would think whatever used to perform such an operation would cause enough damage to not be helpful to visualize this under magnification. Only a perfect laser cut would be able to achieve this. I think any mechanical means would destroy the integrity of the small steps at the edges to make this useful for you. Cutting by mechanical means typically leaves a raised edge from whatever cut the metal on a coin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
micoin Posted August 2 Author Share Posted August 2 After it's roughed by sawing or milling I will finish grind a couple thousands that will clean every thing up CIII 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powermad5000 Posted August 2 Share Posted August 2 On 8/1/2024 at 8:15 PM, Henri Charriere said: On another thread, a highly-regarded member who has made his position on counterfeiters and counterfeits plain, has now voiced his opinion that no true numismatist would conduct sound-tests on coins dropped from unspecified heights onto unspecified presumably resonant surfaces. To emphasize his point, he uses ALL BOLD UNDERLINED CAPITAL LETTERS. I have a question for Ricky. Would he take a presumably MS 67 Gold Rooster of any year and drop it onto a table to hear the sound it makes as a way to know whether it makes the sound a gold coin would in a decision on either to purchase such piece, or to determine whether or not the presumed piece is authentic? Sorry to the OP for this tangent to wonderful full step Jefferson Nickels. Sorry I don't have acceptable reverse photos showing the 6 full steps on some of the nickels I have. The one photo by @J P M is definitely an excellent one to see this by. I cannot stop you from cutting a coin apart as much as I can stop anyone from acid bathing, plating, vise jobbing, or throwing their coin off of a table or floor (still don't think this is going to help in your endeavor to understand), but as is said in this forum on occasion, Back on track! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coinbuf Posted August 2 Share Posted August 2 On 8/1/2024 at 4:32 PM, micoin said: When FSNC and PAC started grading they started on the top and stepped down Makes no difference, six steps up, six steps down. CIII 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
micoin Posted August 2 Author Share Posted August 2 IF they have steps the top steps are always the best at top and deteriorate as they descend Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J P M Posted August 2 Share Posted August 2 I think if you dig to deep you will be disappointed on the quality of some of the coins the US mint has made in the past. During the sixty's if you could find a coin with full steps it was a miracle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henri Charriere Posted August 2 Share Posted August 2 On 8/2/2024 at 6:59 AM, J P M said: I think if you dig to deep you will be disappointed on the quality of some of the coins the US mint has made in the past. During the sixty's if you could find a coin with full steps it was a miracle. I believe I read somewhere, Jefferson nickels minted before the 1960's are not eligible for Full-Step consideration. I would be curious to know who first broached the subject, and when. Sandon 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henri Charriere Posted August 2 Share Posted August 2 On 8/2/2024 at 12:19 AM, powermad5000 said: I have a question for Ricky. Would he take a presumably MS 67 Gold Rooster of any year and drop it onto a table to hear the smightound it makes as a way to know whether it makes the sound a gold coin would in a decision on either to purchase such piece, or to determine whether or not the presumed piece is authentic?.... (Apologies to the OP for the following intrusion.) Congratulations, PM5000! I am taking the liberty of adding your name to the list of illustrious members who've chosen to address Ricky the 🐓, an inanimate object. 🤣 Ricky might because by the time I discovered the Set Registry, I had acquired several MS-67 Gold Roosters, some of which are Top Pops. Ricky never made my Registry. I bought him raw and he was adjudged to be an MS-64+. I believe it fair to say he is jealous of my latest acquisition-in-transit: a 1913 and the most beautiful MS-67 I will have in the entire series. Not to put you on the spot, but I am sure you know from personal experience a 90% copper Wheatie, when dropped, will ring like a bell unlike the current crop of tin horn wannabes that land with a dull thud. No bullion coin or one with numismatic value should ever be handled improperly -- much less dropped. powermad5000 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rrantique Posted August 2 Share Posted August 2 I don't think any of these would qualify for full steps Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
