What happens when a coin die subsides and then shatters? Well....it makes quite a mess... 1 1

[Mike Meenderink]

Edited July 29 by Mike Meenderink

[RWB]

Please explain this: "What happens when a coin die subducts...." 

Edited July 29 by RWB

[J P M]

On 7/29/2024 at 11:10 AM, Mike Meenderink said:

What kind of mess is this, Mike. This coin looks like it was heated and squished

[The Neophyte Numismatist]

Agree this looks like heat damage to me.  I could not explain how this would happen during the minting process.  Can you help with more detail, so I can understand?

Note - Let's keep in mind that the zinc of a modern cent has a lower melting temp that the coper cladding around the zinc.  Therefore, the copper plating can be a "skin" to the molten zinc.  This would further lead me to believe that this is a coin that is showing heat damage. 

Edited July 29 by The Neophyte Numismatist

[Mike Meenderink]

On 7/29/2024 at 8:15 AM, RWB said:

Please explain this: "What happens when a coin die subducts...." 

Die subduction is when an area of a coin die has a softer metal content due to impurities or improper die production. This caused certain areas of the coin die to begin to subduct or sink into the surface of the die. This leaves raised areas on the coin. As this process continues unabated the coin die can eventually shatter and cause a shattered die strike as we see here. The die was very badly damaged prior to this coin's strike. Likely a few more coins were struck as well prior and after this coin until the mint workers noticed. The pieces of the broken die get all jumbled up in the press shift around and are floating loose in the collar this is what creates the wavy chunky deformations on the coin. There is no evidence of heating since this would cause bubble pits from escaping gas and also severely discolor the coin blue and black. This is a late stage shattered die that was previously subducted then failed causing this abnormality. It is a mint error coin.

[Henri Charriere]

On 7/29/2024 at 11:15 AM, RWB said:

Please explain this: "What happens when a coin die subducts...." 

Very simple. Member Abuela posed a similar question and when I responded with an answer a certified nincompoop could plainly see was humor -- I bolstered my answer with the movement of tectonic plates and a build-up pressure which resulted in massive damage  @Oldhoopster rode in on his white horse and castigated me in uncharacterically graphic language.  I believe I was decribing how lamination occurs. @Mike Meenderink  is simply being provocative.  To each his own.

To show you what a good sport I can be, the other day when you used the term "bespoke" incorrectly, I let it ride. Most members would not know what any of this means anyway.  Besides, in my eyes, you can do no wrong.  

Edited July 29 by Henri Charriere
Die polishing.

[RWB]

On 7/29/2024 at 12:27 PM, Mike Meenderink said:

Die subduction is when an area of a coin die has a softer metal content due to impurities or improper die production. This caused certain areas of the coin die to begin to subduct or sink into the surface of the die. This leaves raised areas on the coin. As this process continues unabated the coin die can eventually shatter and cause a shattered die strike as we see here. The die was very badly damaged prior to this coin's strike. Likely a few more coins were struck as well prior and after this coin until the mint workers noticed. The pieces of the broken die get all jumbled up in the press shift around and are floating loose in the collar this is what creates the wavy chunky deformations on the coin. There is no evidence of heating since this would cause bubble pits from escaping gas and also severely discolor the coin blue and black. This is a late stage shattered die that was previously subducted then failed causing this abnormality. It is a mint error coin.

Mike -- Please go back to whatever source you got that from and burn it.

Coinage dies no not - ever - subduct (slide under) as that term is used. What you are talking about is a collapsed die. This occurs when a die is improperly heat treated during hardening or tempering. Dies for larger coins, such as dollars and double eagles, exhibit this more frequently than small coins such as cents and dimes.

Die collapse produces coins with irregular curvature of the fields (table) and often show radial metal stress in the transition between normal steel and collapsed steel. In extreme cases coins will have noticeably strong centers and weak peripheral lettering (or vice versa if the center collapsed).

A shattered die is one that developed enough cracks to mechanically fail. This is usually a result of using excessive pressure during striking, and in the "old days" possibly to poor steel. Modern die steel and presses for small coins do not shatter - and never did long ago either. Large cent, Early seated Liberty and Bust coins occasionally have cracks that are obvious precursors to die failure. There are also coins with large "cuds" where pieces of the die has fallen out.

Die fragments do not "float about." Any pieces of metal would be very sharp, immediately forced into the remaining die and collar - ruining them and possibly breaking one of die chucks or gearing.

The coin in the original post has nothing to do with die collapse or die shattering.

Edited July 29 by RWB

[RWB]

On 7/29/2024 at 1:01 PM, Henri Charriere said:

you used the term "bespoke" incorrectly, I let it ride.

"Bespoke" refers to custom made items especially garments as in a "bespoke suit." I used it in that sense and that use is correct.

[Mike Meenderink]

On 7/29/2024 at 11:27 AM, RWB said:

Mike -- Please go back to whatever source you got that from and burn it.

Coinage dies no not - ever - subduct (slide under) as that term is used. What you are talking about is a collapsed die. This occurs when a die is improperly heat treated during hardening or tempering. Dies for larger coins, such as dollars and double eagles, exhibit this more frequently than small coins such as cents and dimes.

Die collapse produces coins with irregular curvature of the fields (table) and often show radial metal stress in the transition between normal steel and collapsed steel. In extreme cases coins will have noticeably strong centers and weak peripheral lettering (or vice versa if the center collapsed).

A shattered die is one that developed enough cracks to mechanically fail. This is usually a result of using excessive pressure during striking, and in the "old days" possibly to poor steel. Modern die steel and presses for small coins do not shatter - and never did long ago either. Large cent, Early seated Liberty and Bust coins occasionally have cracks that are obvious precursors to die failure. There are also coins with large "cuds" where pieces of the die has fallen out.

Die fragments do not "float about." Any pieces of metal would be very sharp, immediately forced into the remaining die and collar - ruining them and possibly breaking one of die chucks or gearing.

The coin in the original post has nothing to do with die collapse or die shattering.

100% disagree this is a mint error and you described exactly what I said to a tee. Die deformation creates subduction in the die (sinking metal) the coin was struck by a severely damaged possibly shattered die. The coin cannot be explained any other way. If so please do.

[Greenstang]

After all the technical terminology, it still looks like heat damage. Can’t see how a coin can look like that    
after being struck in the coining machine.

[Mike Meenderink]

The term subduction refers to the movement of tectonic plates (one under the other) in geological terms here as Henri said I used a term not properly suited to RWB's liking (all be it is not the correct term I admit that) In my haste I choose a word which does not technically "fit" but you get the idea right? The word I meant to use was SUBSIDENCE. Another hijacked geological term used in numismatics. I got them mixed up. I apologize.

Edited July 29 by Mike Meenderink

[Coinbuf]

On 7/29/2024 at 12:49 PM, Mike Meenderink said:

The coin cannot be explained any other way. If so please do.

Heat damage, your welcome.

[Mike Meenderink]

Can someone please make one for me. If its heat damage it should be easily replicable. Try it how ever you want. Kiln, oven, torch, fireplace, campfire, whatever. Show me your coin after.

[J P M]

OK Mike. lets try some plane old common cents. You have two dies obverse and reverse. You are saying both dies had a failure. because both sides look the same to me. I would think the odds of that would be the same as a 1982 D sd copper showing up here. I think something happened to the zinc inside 

[Coinbuf]

On 7/29/2024 at 1:27 PM, Mike Meenderink said:

Can someone please make one for me. If its heat damage it should be easily replicable. Try it how ever you want. Kiln, oven, torch, fireplace, campfire, whatever. Show me your coin after.

Where did you get the photos from Mike?

[RWB]

On 7/29/2024 at 3:49 PM, Mike Meenderink said:

100% disagree this is a mint error and you described exactly what I said to a tee. Die deformation creates subduction in the die (sinking metal) the coin was struck by a severely damaged possibly shattered die. The coin cannot be explained any other way. If so please do.

No, Mike. Re-read my comments. There is no such thing as "subduction of a die," and your comments about a shattered die are completely wrong. I'm sure you are trying, but where ever you got your info is either a joke, or something you have completely misunderstood. The cent photo has no relation to either a sunken die or a cracked/shattered die.

The photo below shows early stage die collapse on a Nickel piece from INCO.  A little inside the rim, through the tops of lettering, is a fuzzy looking band. Under magnification this is a series of short lines radiating from the center. These are caused by steel deforming to maintain connection between the normal metal and  the softer metal beginning to sunk (or recede) under pressure. Think of them as "stretch marks" when you try to pull apart any pliable material. Small parts of some letters such as M E show distortion from the same cause. If kept in use, this die would have developed cracks connecting letters and additional distortion in the design. Had it suddenly failed completely - exploded was George Morgan's term in 1922 - Any planchet would have been a mess of sharp edged cuds, distorted pieces of the design and the reverse would be incompletely struck, but otherwise mostly normal.

Edited July 29 by RWB

[powermad5000]

https://www.error-ref.com/?s=catastrophic+die+failure

 

This is more what I think when I hear shattered die. I can't see both dies shattering at the same time and I am with @J P M when it comes to that.

If a die had a spot that "sunk" that would result in a raised area either very weakly struck or unstruck as would be in a cud but it would be in the center of the die (or area where the die was "sunk" in). The rest of the coin would still strike up but maybe not as fully as there would be a lack of metal to flow from the unstruck area that would be "sunken". I just don't think it would look anything like the cent in the opening of this thread. 

As for this die subsidence, they still don't look like the posted cent.

 

https://www.error-ref.com/?s=die+subsidence

[Mike Meenderink]

On 7/29/2024 at 4:07 PM, Coinbuf said:

Where did you get the photos from Mike?

Floating around on the net...I cant see how you could use heat to make this..but whatever..I like to start stuff.....lol

[Mike Meenderink]

On 7/29/2024 at 3:00 PM, J P M said:

OK Mike. lets try some plane old common cents. You have two dies obverse and reverse. You are saying both dies had a failure. because both sides look the same to me. I would think the odds of that would be the same as a 1982 D sd copper showing up here. I think something happened to the zinc inside 

Best point made yet. I am beginning to see evidence of some heating the closer I look. The only issue I have with heat is the coloring. The temps would have to be really high to melt the zinc inside and soften the copper clad like that so I would have thought Id see more "bluing" or heat rainbows on the coin from this. I saw it as a clashed die /die shatter coin possibly both dies involved. I'm seeing now (after super enlarging the photo) evidence of a pinpoint high heat source applied to the obverse in front of Lincolns nose.  I'm going to try and make one myself with my pinpoint jet torch just to prove it to myself. Hey I'm not perfect............lol

[Mike Meenderink]

On 7/29/2024 at 4:29 PM, RWB said:

No, Mike. Re-read my comments. There is no such thing as "subduction of a die," and your comments about a shattered die are completely wrong. I'm sure you are trying, but where ever you got your info is either a joke, or something you have completely misunderstood. The cent photo has no relation to either a sunken die or a cracked/shattered die.

The photo below shows early stage die collapse on a Nickel piece from INCO.  A little inside the rim, through the tops of lettering, is a fuzzy looking band. Under magnification this is a series of short lines radiating from the center. These are caused by steel deforming to maintain connection between the normal metal and  the softer metal beginning to sunk (or recede) under pressure. Think of them as "stretch marks" when you try to pull apart any pliable material. Small parts of some letters such as M E show distortion from the same cause. If kept in use, this die would have developed cracks connecting letters and additional distortion in the design. Had it suddenly failed completely - exploded was George Morgan's term in 1922 - Any planchet would have been a mess of sharp edged cuds, distorted pieces of the design and the reverse would be incompletely struck, but otherwise mostly normal.

I

I meant to say subsidence not subduction.  I was tired when this thread attacked me. I made mistakes. I didn't look close enough at the coin prior to original posting. Now I mega magnified it and I see the pinpoint heating. My apologies. I was wrong about this coin.

[RWB]

Changed the thread title, huh? Conclusions remain totally wrong...but you tried!

[Rob’s Coins]

Yeah, and everyone knows that bespoke is another word for bee sting.  Gosh guys, get it together!  

[VKurtB]

No subduction, no subsidence. This is an intentionally heat damaged coin. End of story.

[dcarr]

The core of that coin (zinc) has a lower melting point than the outer shell (copper).

When heated the point where the core is melted and the shell is still solid but pliable, this is the result.

 

[dcarr]

On 7/29/2024 at 5:29 PM, RWB said:

No, Mike. Re-read my comments. There is no such thing as "subduction of a die," and your comments about a shattered die are completely wrong. I'm sure you are trying, but where ever you got your info is either a joke, or something you have completely misunderstood. The cent photo has no relation to either a sunken die or a cracked/shattered die.

The photo below shows early stage die collapse on a Nickel piece from INCO.  A little inside the rim, through the tops of lettering, is a fuzzy looking band. Under magnification this is a series of short lines radiating from the center. These are caused by steel deforming to maintain connection between the normal metal and  the softer metal beginning to sunk (or recede) under pressure. Think of them as "stretch marks" when you try to pull apart any pliable material. Small parts of some letters such as M E show distortion from the same cause. If kept in use, this die would have developed cracks connecting letters and additional distortion in the design. Had it suddenly failed completely - exploded was George Morgan's term in 1922 - Any planchet would have been a mess of sharp edged cuds, distorted pieces of the design and the reverse would be incompletely struck, but otherwise mostly normal.

That does no look like a die collapse to me at all.

It looks like a situation where a planchet with upset rims is not struck hard enough for the valley near the raised rims to be fully struck.